Comments on: Theology vs democracy http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm A Machiavellian Perspective on the Middle East Conflict Thu, 02 Feb 2012 06:09:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: bar http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm/comment-page-1#comment-85466 bar Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:31:19 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm#comment-85466 I think democracy is best. Unfortunately what we call democracy in most western "liberal democracies" isn't. It is a periodically elected oligarchic dictatorship. . If we want real democracy, then allow any citizen vote on any legislation that citizen wants to vote on. (by, e.g. polling on the internet.) There are people who think real Democracy won't work, like Lee Kwan Yu. (as they argue, Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat for dinner). . Voting responsibly is cultural. Compare the Swiss, who have strong participatory elements in their democracy. The Swiss voted for high taxes, intended as savings for their retirement. On the other hand, look at Californians, who have citizen initiated legislation. Californians are sending their state bankrupt by voting against taxes. . In summary, it does not seem possible to prevent those that we elect to rule us from becoming corrupted. What we need is some way of attenuating their power, which will hopefully reduce the level of corruption. I think democracy is best. Unfortunately what we call democracy in most western “liberal democracies” isn’t. It is a periodically elected oligarchic dictatorship.
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If we want real democracy, then allow any citizen vote on any legislation that citizen wants to vote on. (by, e.g. polling on the internet.) There are people who think real Democracy won’t work, like Lee Kwan Yu. (as they argue, Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat for dinner).
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Voting responsibly is cultural. Compare the Swiss, who have strong participatory elements in their democracy. The Swiss voted for high taxes, intended as savings for their retirement. On the other hand, look at Californians, who have citizen initiated legislation. Californians are sending their state bankrupt by voting against taxes.
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In summary, it does not seem possible to prevent those that we elect to rule us from becoming corrupted. What we need is some way of attenuating their power, which will hopefully reduce the level of corruption.

]]> By: Albert http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm/comment-page-1#comment-85462 Albert Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:50:11 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm#comment-85462 Btw, Danny, are any articles forthcoming concerning the economic crisis of the US? Btw, Danny, are any articles forthcoming concerning the economic crisis of the US?

]]> By: Albert http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm/comment-page-1#comment-85461 Albert Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:48:56 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm#comment-85461 Ray, I would not object at all to a meritocracy. A system that manages to pick out the best, most skilled people for the job of leadership is one I would support. As Said mentioned, meritocracy has been suggested since Plato. How often has it occurred? If it hasn't we must ask why? We should not attempt to radically change societies, as Obadiah has often said, the better course would be to go along with tradition and change slowly. Ray,

I would not object at all to a meritocracy. A system that manages to pick out the best, most skilled people for the job of leadership is one I would support.

As Said mentioned, meritocracy has been suggested since Plato. How often has it occurred?

If it hasn’t we must ask why? We should not attempt to radically change societies, as Obadiah has often said, the better course would be to go along with tradition and change slowly.

]]> By: Albert http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm/comment-page-1#comment-85444 Albert Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:24:00 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm#comment-85444 Ah of course Erick! How naive of me! ;) Ah of course Erick! How naive of me! ;)

]]> By: Erick S http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm/comment-page-1#comment-85438 Erick S Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:50:41 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm#comment-85438 Albert, the richest person is the best one for the job, of course ;) Albert, the richest person is the best one for the job, of course ;)

]]> By: Said http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm/comment-page-1#comment-85435 Said Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:09:44 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm#comment-85435 To say that a system of government will last is the height of folly. No type of system lasts for very long, and even those that do last tend to change subtlely from the inside (eg feudalism and monarchies), else they stagnate and die. The idea of building a system to last, if not forever, then for the logest possible time, is flawed in and of itself. Humanity thrives on change and adaptation to new environments and ideas - case in point: democracy. Thus we should be building systems of government to adapt to the future. Danny the Admin, Rabbi Ovadia is discussing the destruction of democracy from the inside, I gave an example of it being focibly destroyed from the outside: losing the Pelopennesian War is not a testament against democracy's strength, but if you want to take it that way, then look at the Cold War as a counter-point to your argument. Thankfully, for all of mankind, democracy won - even if many think it was merely the lesser of two evils. As for the meritocracy that others have talked about, then read Plato's Republic. Socrates goes about discussing things like the meaning of justice and so on, then describes (in his view and in many's) the perfect meritocracy. Yet even he admits that it will always remain theoretical and never truly materialise. Thus meritocracy is noble in essence, but the most difficult type (impossible) of system to implement. Virtue is not needed in democracy. To say that a system of government will last is the height of folly. No type of system lasts for very long, and even those that do last tend to change subtlely from the inside (eg feudalism and monarchies), else they stagnate and die. The idea of building a system to last, if not forever, then for the logest possible time, is flawed in and of itself. Humanity thrives on change and adaptation to new environments and ideas – case in point: democracy. Thus we should be building systems of government to adapt to the future. Danny the Admin, Rabbi Ovadia is discussing the destruction of democracy from the inside, I gave an example of it being focibly destroyed from the outside: losing the Pelopennesian War is not a testament against democracy’s strength, but if you want to take it that way, then look at the Cold War as a counter-point to your argument. Thankfully, for all of mankind, democracy won – even if many think it was merely the lesser of two evils.

As for the meritocracy that others have talked about, then read Plato’s Republic. Socrates goes about discussing things like the meaning of justice and so on, then describes (in his view and in many’s) the perfect meritocracy. Yet even he admits that it will always remain theoretical and never truly materialise. Thus meritocracy is noble in essence, but the most difficult type (impossible) of system to implement. Virtue is not needed in democracy.

]]> By: Ray Bright http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm/comment-page-1#comment-85428 Ray Bright Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:59:35 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm#comment-85428 Danny, The defeat of Athenian democracy by Spartan tyranny did not last long. Athenians killed the tyrants and Spartans did not come do their defense. Athenian democracy committed suicide when they voted to kill Socrates for the crime of publicly challenging (and ridiculing)the authority. Danny,
The defeat of Athenian democracy by Spartan tyranny did not last long. Athenians killed the tyrants and Spartans did not come do their defense. Athenian democracy committed suicide when they voted to kill Socrates for the crime of publicly challenging (and ridiculing)the authority.

]]> By: Ray Bright http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm/comment-page-1#comment-85427 Ray Bright Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:55:01 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm#comment-85427 Albert, Every problem can be approached with "how to solve it", or alternatively with giving up upon encountering a difficulty. The first approach is leading to results. Part of searching for a better system is experimentation. When something does not work, change it. There are many way by which we can measure a persons patriotic commitment, one for example would be to make sure that he/she is not there for the money. Make a rule that the leader must live on income equal to the average of his country. The leaders must must not use their position in the government for personal enrichment through any means. Anyone who does not like this arrangement clearly considers their personal benefits more important than their country. The above is just an idea, perhaps worth trying, perhaps needing further refinement. I am just indicating a certain attitude of "CAN DO" versus your's "UNWORKABLE IN REALITY". As for intelligence and problem solving skills there are already many tests. They are not perfect by far shot, and can be improved. Particularly most of them are not designed to measure someone's ability to stay focussed for long time on a difficult problem, rather they are designed to measure quick solutions. This can be improved. But even with current methods, America could do better that George Bush, of whom I am certain that he would not be able to pass 8 grades test in mathematics from his own state of Texas. (I have looked at the test on line). Likewise his almost complete lack of knowledge of Geography and History should disqualify him as a leader. = When we hire services of a mechanic, we usually don't tell him how he is to perform the service. Instead we want to relay on his skill. Likewise, we may vote on what are our important goals, but we should not micromanage our leaders, we should have the best, smartest, most dedicated and most qualified people in the position and then we should support them, rather than undermine them. Albert,

Every problem can be approached with “how to solve it”, or alternatively with giving up upon encountering a difficulty.
The first approach is leading to results. Part of searching for a better system is experimentation. When something does not work, change it.

There are many way by which we can measure a persons patriotic commitment, one for example would be to make sure that he/she is not there for the money. Make a rule that the leader must live on income equal to the average of his country. The leaders must must not use their position in the government for personal enrichment through any means. Anyone who does not like this arrangement clearly considers their personal benefits more important than their country.
The above is just an idea, perhaps worth trying, perhaps needing further refinement. I am just indicating a certain attitude of “CAN DO” versus your’s “UNWORKABLE IN REALITY”.

As for intelligence and problem solving skills there are already many tests. They are not perfect by far shot, and can be improved. Particularly most of them are not designed to measure someone’s ability to stay focussed for long time on a difficult problem, rather they are designed to measure quick solutions. This can be improved. But even with current methods, America could do better that George Bush, of whom I am certain that he would not be able to pass 8 grades test in mathematics from his own state of Texas. (I have looked at the test on line). Likewise his almost complete lack of knowledge of Geography and History should disqualify him as a leader.
=
When we hire services of a mechanic, we usually don’t tell him how he is to perform the service. Instead we want to relay on his skill. Likewise, we may vote on what are our important goals, but we should not micromanage our leaders, we should have the best, smartest, most dedicated and most qualified people in the position and then we should support them, rather than undermine them.

]]> By: Albert http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm/comment-page-1#comment-85411 Albert Wed, 19 Mar 2008 03:32:52 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm#comment-85411 Ray, Most systems attempt to be meritocracies. How would your meritocracy work? Who decides which person is man has the most intelligence/integrity/bravery...etc? It's unworkable in reality. Ray,

Most systems attempt to be meritocracies. How would your meritocracy work?

Who decides which person is man has the most intelligence/integrity/bravery…etc?

It’s unworkable in reality.

]]> By: Danny the Admin http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm/comment-page-1#comment-85365 Danny the Admin Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:48:03 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/theology-vs-democracy.htm#comment-85365 The argument is a fortiori. *Even* Ovadia Yosef is better than Olmert, and *all the more* any decent rabbi is better than any politician. The argument is a fortiori. *Even* Ovadia Yosef is better than Olmert, and *all the more* any decent rabbi is better than any politician.

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