God, I would hate to see that happen, but it is a valid alternative.
The survival of the Jewish state is important.
If it will be have to be populated almost entirely by the Orthodox, then so be it.

Though somehow I doubt these people’s willingness and ability to wage an efficient full-scale war against the Islamic hordes.

It is a tragedy that we can only think of going back to Bronze Ages in order to fight off the Muhammadan Bronze Age Bedouins.

If we do that, then we lose 3000 years of development and progress. We could just as well convert to Islam.

We need a much more courageous solution. I new definition of Jewishness. One that preserves the Jewish genius that has give the world more than any other culture since the Golden Age of Greece 2500 years ago.

Only such new spiritual self-definition will defeat the Muhammadan Bronze Agers without taking us back to Bronze Age.

TO Ovadiah:
I don’t believe the orthodoxy is the way. FIrst of all, they have rabbis. Second, which of the orthodoxy branches is the ideal for your objetive?
The idolater Chabad? The Idolater Shas with Baba Sali/Baba Whatever? Naturei Karta? Lituans? Which one?
Out of this, there is even more jews non-orthodox willing and wishing to reach the same goal. They do not need a rabbi, they need a leader. Not a political one.
To Ray:
Do you ever bother sometimes and stop to think what you write? What is for you a “new definition of jewishness”? Maybe you are able to create something better than G-d. Or your friends can do that too. Your Emptyness is alarming. Those bronze age bedouins can teach you a lesson or two, if maybe sometime you see one. Please define such thing as ” new spiritual self-definition”, But first define “spiritual” And define your sci-fi concept of Muhammadan Bronze Agers. It is a rock band?
Something that makes me sick is the people that write here without knowing anything. Oh, I forgot, they know a lot about Greek culture..

Oooh, this just got interesting.

Good point about the orthodox, Chaim. You’ve point into words that uneasy feeling I had earlier - The orthodox aren’t a single group. They are many sub-groups, reluctant to work together with each other, and with non-orthodox groups.
They would gladly wait for the Messiah rather than try and bring salvation with their own hands. I know how many groups are brainwashed to believe in that.

If I were the Messiah, I, too, would prefer to help those who help themselves first.

This sounds like a written endorsement of genocide towards “secular” Jews and Muslims alike. And we call ourselves an enlightened country. Let’s just toss the first amendment out the window while we’re at it.

To Chaim,
0.) If your questions are sincere, no need for insults. Insults lower the quality of our inquiry.
1.) Nothing and nobody can make you sick except for yourself. You have the freedom to chose to feel sick, and to feel alarmed, or not. This must be a principle of true spirituality: You are 100% responsible for your feelings, actions and thoughts. Anything else would be victim-hood, which is unworthy of you and an insult to God who’s image you are.

2.) Neither I, nor you can create anything better, or worse than God as all creation is of God. God is a source of all creativity; that includes what you and I create, includes Moses, and Einstein and Freud, and Bal Shem, and Master Hillel, and yes it even includes what Hitler creates. Any other “God” is just puny and manicured to fit peoples petty preconditioned moralistic minds.

3.) Bronze-Age Spirituality is based in mythologies. It projects God as a “Great King” or Ruler, of “Father Figure” up in the sky. Such bronze age “Mr.God” requires a lot of worship, and flattery as akin to Eastern despots such as Pharaoh, Assyrian and Babylonian monarchs. Main feature of Bronze Age religions is their fear of “God”, the authoritarianism, reliance on ancient holy books and their interpretors.

4.) Definition of Spirituality: That which is not physical,or mental. The highest level of consciousness. The source of all existence and source of consciousness. That which is outside TIME and exists before birth and after death. Direct experiencing of the Divine.

5.) Moses was in direct contact with the God (The Divine), so was Abraham, Isaac, etc. They described it the best they could given their time. Today, religion is dead without the direct contact with the Divine, (God). Such religion is purely mental.

6.) The great among people have transcended mythology and were in direct contact with God. On average Jews are more creative than any other nation on this planet, because Jews have more access to Divine source of creation: Example Einstein’s discoveries were revelations from God. So were all others.

7.) It is true that I don’t know anything (including Greek culture). I am not an authority, or a prophet (God forbid). I have however read Torah several times.
I have also read big parts of Koran; I almost died from boredom because of endless repetitions and fuzzy thinking.

1) Who lived in Israel before the Jews?

2) Judaism teaches reverance for all life. Who that reveres all life would want to kill someone or kick them out of their homes?

3) You know they (whomever you call they) have a book they revere and believe just as much as you revere and believe yours. The only difference is who the parents were. What if their beliefs are correct and yours are in error? Or in other words, why should I believe your scrolls over another religion’s?

4) If you are willing to blindly follow a rabbi, than you have just violated one of the commandments.

5) Maybe you should concentrate on reading your Torah and following it exactly!!! You only have 613 commandments to obey. That should keep you busy. And if you decide that you don’t have to follow some of them, then you have just violated the same commandment.

6) And finally, remember that we are all Bnai’ Adam. We are all cousins. If you see an enemy, it’s only because you believe you have one.

Shalom l’culam!

One more thing
Don’t worry about the population ratios. At the rate that your population is growing, you will starve Israel out of its resources with your religious greed.

To Ray Bright,

If Einstein’s “discoveries” were indeed revelations from God, were his his philosophies too?

“You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.” –Albert Einstein

“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.” — Albert Einstein

I am not Jewish in heritage, and I am not religious by choice. I am agnostic, because I think that to declare that one knows what is ultimately the truth is to declare that one is equal with “God” (although I’m not 100% sure about that). I do know what I have seen on this earth, and it is scary that so many believe in unprovable stories from the past and so many on all sides are willing to sacrifce everyone and themselves and their families just in hopes to prove that they are right and God will come and redeem them. I must say that even though I don’t know what is the truth, if it is the Jewish, Christian, or Muslim religions that are true then I would rather suffer any eternal punishment for not believing than to believe blindly in any idea that causes so much suffering for what? Am I to believe in ancient stories told me to by people who say to have lived through them when no one in the last 2000 years has been given additional information directly from God? Why should the souls of someone who walked with Abraham, Moses, Jesus, or Mohammed be more important that they were given direct evidence and we are not? If I had seen with my own eyes, I could believe, but why are we expected to trust on blind faith when some have been allowed to see first-hand? Seems unfair to me. I digress……

To Ray: I never insulted you. I just told the truth. You babble freely, and always distort the post line of thinking.
Answering your points:
1-In deed, your post make me sick.
2-Compare your answer in this point and you idea about creating a new something in your first post.
3-Where you got that the archaeological definition of Bronze age has something to do with the way believing was expressed?
4-Your definition stinks. Please read something and come back later.
5-???
6- And you are one of those jews?
7-I agree finally with you. You don’t know nothing

To JB: Judaism is not strictly about belief. Jewish system of morals demonstrably provides for an economically liberal, comfortable, and moral society.
To Steve: Where you’ve got that Judaism teaches reverence for life? Look at the execution of criminals and deviants, killing of enemies, the extermination of Amalek, etc. Judaism is about divine service and ritual purity, and the life is a dispensable instrument.
To Square1: I call Israel a Jewish country. Who calls it “enlightened”?
To Chaim: I won’t care about the religious tint of a rabbi who leads the crowds to destroy the Aqsa.
To Ray: Do you think that human mentality or morality has changed over the past 3,000 years?
To Erick: The scenario is unlikely but such things happened in the past with Orthodox Jews, and just the last year they stopped homosexuals.

Danny:
So your answer is let’s destroy Al Aqsa. Ok, let’s say I agree. Then what you make next? What is your next move?
Here is the point where the tint of your rabbi begins to wheight.

Destroy first, think later

This really seems to be a case in which the bullied have become the bullies themselves. As far as the comment about an enlightened nation I was referring to the U.S. Many citizens in the U.S. express the same view points, and it is their right to be able to have those view points, but it is so sad to me that documents like our own Declaration of Independence in which it is stated “All men are created equal” and our Constitution in which it is outlined that we have the freedom to practice whichever religion we wish so long as it is not causing harm to someone else, are regarded with such little importance. The American attitude seems to be that the individual speaking has freedom but doesn’t much care if someone else does. As to the conflict between the Palestine and Israel, it has less to do with religion and more to do with who has a right to the land. Whenever a group of people cite “divine entitlement” as a reason for wiping out another people and driving them from their homes… I’m sorry, but that’s genocide. The Europeans did it here in America, it was done to the Aborigines in Australia, it was done to Jews, Muslims, Gypsies and anyone else that didn’t fit the “Aryan race” requirements during World War II, and it continues to be done in many areas of the world. It is still wrong, and I’m ashamed that my country actually endorses it because it is convenient to have Israel as an ally. Just watch though, the moment it becomes “inconvenient” our government will wash it’s hands of Israel. Why? Because our politicians are treacherous like that, and I have absolutely no love for them.

Danny, destroy first, think later? What are your contingency plans? What if you destroy and then a civil strife begins about who owns the temple? Have you taught about it?
there is not free lunches… The ones who destroy will ask for a part too..

To Denny,
You are exactly correct:
Our morality has not changed much in the last 3000 years. Morally we are still living in the Bronze Ages. This is exactly the point I am making:
While in the realm of science we have liberated ourselves from the mythological thinking, in the realm of religion and morality we are still enslaved by the mythologies.

The modern “Western” science was born when people (during the Golden age of Greece)started to differentiate between myths on one hand and facts and correct logical conclusions on the other. This new thinking was applied to mathematics and natural science. Unfortunately it was never applied to social science, morality, law, human relations, psychology. Above all, religion/spirituality were not touched by this revolution.
The disparity between development of natural science on one hand, and religion on the other, can well lead to a period of several hundred years of Dark Ages (where Islam rules), or in the worst (though possible case) with extinction of human life from Planet Earth,

One reason why I am excited about Obadiah’s writings is that he is more rational, substantially freer from mythological thinking than any other author I have read on the subject of Israel, ME and international politics in general.
He appears to be relatively mildly stuck in the Jewish mythology, while he discards the politically correct Leftist mythology.

To Chaim,
If “I make you sick”, then you are just an object. A thing without the God given power to chose. You have given away your humanity, and now my writing has power (over you) to make you sick.

Generally I invite you to make an attempt to understand what is being written, before you jump into criticizing.

To JB,

No, Einstein saw an entirely new vision of space-time. That vision was translated to Special and later General Relativity.

As for his philosophical observations, they are very good and reasonable as far as mind goes, but they are by far not direct vision. They contain only speculative “truth”, no deep or Divine Truth in them.

Leftists in the United States constantly refer to the Constitution as a “living document”. This means that they can change it anytime they can find a judge to agree with them.

But it is just a lie — the Constitution states specifically how it may be changed, by Amendment passed in the Congress and approved by the States.

The Torah is the Law. There is no provision for amendment. No matter how many Rabbis interpret it, it alone remains the Law. No matter how reasonable it may seem to not eat a cheeseburger, the Law is simply not to seeth a kid in its mother’s milk. A cheeseburger just doesn’t come into the injunction.

Lose the commentaries and go back to the Torah. It would be difficult to follow, but what is easy?

Ray Bright always talks of a Jewishness that is not Jewish. No religion, but just the mental superiority of the Jew, that all the world will embrace. Get a grip, man. The stupid kill the intelligent every time, unless the intelligent grow a pair.

It is not for nothing that the Torah tells us that Moses was raised as a Prince of Egypt. The Egyptian “religion” was more than pagan myth. They were a truly great scientific civilization. Moses was educated in that civilization. What might have for thousands of years seemed to be backward, superstitious traditions, are now coming to be understood as scientifically based instructions. I will give just one example:

Only the Levites could touch the Ark of the Covenant. Any of the other tribes would be struck dead. Even 30 years ago, such a thing would be considered foolish myth. Yet, today, we have the scientifically based capability to create exactly such a genetically based “booby trap”. If atheists can do it, God cannot?

I love it when non-believers make “rational” explanations for the Law as transmitted. They refuse to understand that greater societies than ours have existed and disappeared. Moses knew the science of Egypt, and he had the direct instruction of the One. Take the Torah exactly as transmitted, and Israel shall see wonders such as have never been seen before.

A true leader is needed here in Isreal. A Rabbi could lead all Beny Barak and meah Sharim to stop the action of the traitors who are endangering the existance of the life of the people who live here by releaseing terrorists for nothing and arming the enemy.
A true leader could lead them to remove the enemy within and with out. He could lead hundred of thousands up to the temple mount to do the korban passach. Unfortunately it seems at this time most of the so called “rabi” just like sucking the shekals. If Ovadyah Yosef wanted to though he could mobilize thousands. Much like what happened to end the soviet union.
Eventually Hashem will probobly force the issue like this as takeinf oil from the olive. The people will be forced to act. At this rate it looks like there will be no other choice.
Its when “push come to shov”. The sages said along time ago that the “erev rav” will force this situation. or again as the maharol said that the first goverment preciding redemption is only the peel of the fruit. It will rot and then the fruit the messianic goverment will be seen. The peel is definately rotting now , It really stinks !

Joseph, I agree with what you wrote.
Also, the Israelites who accepted the Torah were not ‘mentally superior’ as a group. Only individuals are.
Abraham was not told that his children will all become doctors and lawyers. I’m sure that would have made Sarah happy though

Everybody hates the kid who claims he his smarter than everyone else. It is the same with nations.

Melach: I don’t see them risking their necks for something like the state of Israel. They already seclude themselves from society, see non-haredim as ‘virtually gentile’, and mind mostly their own business.
Did a single Haredi rabbi express his concern about “Har habait” being in enemy hands? About the needless sacrifice of Jews in order to save the lives of enemies? About the very physical, material hardships of the citizens of Israel?

Well, if there is such a rabbi, then he should be a candidate to lead his brethren.

Joseph,

Jewishness is much deeper than the Jewish religion. Very often, religion disappears, yet, Jewishness remains (example Einstein, Bohr,
Oppenheimer, Wittgenstein, Spinoza, Feynman,Cantor, etc,etc. )

Also, please note, that I am aligned with Obadiah, because he is rational. He understands human nature rather than idealize it. This too, is an example of scientific approach as applied to politics.

Ray Bright — I’m sorry, but I missed the post(s) where you actually agreed with anything Obadiah says. Please point me to the appropriate article(s).

Your conception of Jewishness is purely racial. It is truly equal to Nazi racism, only with Jews as the Master Race. And I do not care if the truth offends you.

Danny the Admin is absolutely correct that “Judaism is not strictly about belief. Jewish system of morals demonstrably provides for an economically liberal, comfortable, and moral society.” And “Judaism is about divine service and ritual purity, and the life is a dispensable instrument.”

The Torah does not say “Do these things and you will go to heaven”, or even “Do these things and God will make your life easier”. It just says “Do these things and do not do those things”.

The doing and not doing commanded by the Law is exactly the reason the Jewish race still exists as a distinct race after thousands of years of dispersion among the gentiles. You praise the race, yet to follow your mush-brained prescriptions would guarantee it would disappear.

Erik, your right they don’t risk their necks for something like the state of Israel.
Not yet, and it wont be for the state of Isreal, it will be becouse their Rabbi told them to.
Also true They seclude themselves from society, see non-haredim as ‘virtually gentile’, and mind mostly their own business.
Did a single Haredi rabbi express his concern about “Har habait” being in enemy hands?
There are some but, they are outspoken
About the needless sacrifice of Jews in order to save the lives of enemies? About the very physical, material hardships of the citizens of Israel?
right also, they are pretty confused right now, but when Hashem gives them a propper leader , be shure they will all listen and do. It will probobly begin with something selfesh like the collel money from the goverment to make them take a stand against the goverment and they have the numbers. That why the goverment has been buying their silence for years.

Its a matter of time

It seems its either this, or the suffering will become so great here becouse of concessions to the enemy that The goverment will be forced to act against their enemies in the most severe way. This will be alot more difficult if it has to happen like that.
“one way” is better than another
I think this may be what the sages revered to as mashiach coming in a way of”derach ha tov” or”darech ha Rah” (A bad or good way)
Hopefully mercy will bring a merciful good way

Melach: I really hope you are right about it. I wouldn’t want you to be wrong.

Joseph: Exactly! There is no system of punishment and reward. The social commandments (”Thou shalt not kill”, etc.) make perfect sense without further explanation, and their benefits should be clear even without any notion of an after-life . Not to the individual, but to society. It promotes order and good behavior amongst the population, rather than chaos.

In ‘the old days’, they believed that whatever sins a person commits - his children pay the price for it. That was changed to a personal punishment/reward system, much like in Christianity. Personally, I’m not a big fan of either. I believe it is our duty as a society to purge from ourselves those who misbehave, and promote those who are ethical people.

It seems to me that most of the posters have not been learning Gemorrah these days, if at all. I wish you also would learn Rabbi Avigdor Miller’s sefarim. And, “Strive for Truth”, the English adapation of ‘Michtav MiEliyahu’
I am puzzled by this blog, anyway: what’s with “Samson”? Sounds like you and your co-bloggers want to “edit” the Torah (? )
As an “alter Yid”, I find most of the comments reflect self-fascination or abysmal ignorance/rejection of halachic Judaism.

That’s right - The Gmara and the Halacha are going out the window, so the Jewish people can be brought back on track, and stop being a nation of lawyers, merchants, and imbeciles.

For some of the more simple yet attempting-to-be-subtle but-not-so-subtle posters on here, I have a newsflash for you. Karaite/sadducee Judaism is not the answer. And neither is a ‘non-rabbi’ Judaism. It never worked in the past and it won’t in the future. There are ways to look at Torah in more ‘authentic’ ways than the general rabbi ’spiel’ without disregarding the entirety of Jewish tradition or even contradicting it in any unprecedented ways. Rabbi Kahane ZT”L was a great example of this.

You must realize that an oral tradition came with the Torah, and according to Rambam, for those questions not revealed to Moshe along with written Torah, that is where machlokes begins and where it is the JOB of our sages to work out the answers to these problems as you see them do in various discussions in Talmud and codify them into Jewish law. Thus a majority of the times where you see a machlokes in Talmud represents a specific issue that didn’t have a tradition from Sinai as to how to approach the question. So the rabbis set out to derive an answer based on traditions from their own rebbes, logical proofs, Torah backing and other exegesis, the general principles of which were also given with the Torah. But certainly many things, including the four species, etc were known from the time of Moshe without being written into the Torah explicitly. This is a basic premise of Judaism that cannot simply be ignored by those who dislike rabbis or the rabbinical system.

In the Rambam’s view, the participation aspect was built-in. To him, it would be depreciating the contributions of the great sages to say that ALL things came from Mt. Sinai oral tradition along with written Torah, but at the same time, it would be delusional (and heretical) to suggest as the karaites did that we had NO oral tradition received on Sinai along with written Torah.

It would be delusional to suggest there are unknown passages written in the Torah and that no other oral traditions came along with it from Sinai as to explain what they mean. As if nothiing came with the text to Moshe that survived in our overall tradition, as if Moshe would not explain these things in detail to the Jews and thus incorporate them into the general knowledge base, though not explicitly written. This is an impossibility due to many instances of unclear passages that are unexplained directly by the text itself except through our tradition of what they mean, where there is really no question of what they mean in the current age and practices. Of course the karaites tried to ‘rewrite’ that and act as if we can pretend we don’t know what these passages refer to and make up our own ‘new’ answers that we will pretend are not ‘new.’ This led to their movement largely dying out as impractical and also obliterated by the arguments of the gaonim who did take a slightly different view from Rambam, who was to come later, but specifically to combat this very serious threat to Judaism. The variance there between the Gaonim and Rambam can be viewed more as matter of opinion, as they shared the basic view that certainly an Oral tradition was received in addition to, and explicating on, the written Torah. This is one of the cherished precepts of Judaism.

I have to say i am shoked.

Well, I have to say as an overall response to the ideas and attitudes being propounded on this site:

1. Jews aren’t “better” because they’re smarter, or more creative, or even more moral. They’re just given more responsibility. If a Jew chooses to accept this mission, then he or she is only “better” in the sense of positive action, the choice of a higher calling. And let’s not forget that this choice is available to all humans through conversion, and that gentiles who keep the 7 Noahide moral laws are considered righteous!

2. Jews aren’t racist because of religion. If a Jew happens to be racist, that’s mistaken and just sad. You, Mr. Obadiah, are a racist.

3. The Torah was given by God, through Moses, to the Jewish people, at Sinai. End of story. Without that basic fact, what are your moral grounds for arguing that we have a Law that can or should be followed by generations of Jews? What are your moral grounds for arguing that Jews belong in Israel, if you don’t believe that the Torah is true? In the Torah, it says that God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people. By the way, it also says that if the Jewish people do not keep the laws, which you so easily dismiss, then they will be persecuted and suffer. I’m not, God forbid, judging anyone, or saying anyone should suffer. Of course not! But it’s a fair assumption that several thousand years of suffering and persecution might have at least some of its origin in our own choice to live outside the laws we swore to keep at Sinai. As you said (and then contradicted), it’s simple cause and effect, not punishment per se. If we don’t shine the light of Torah in the world, the world will be dark. When the world is dark, everyone suffers.

4. Your philosophy has some large holes, my friend. The Torah is a living law, given by God. Yes, the rabbis interpret it, and yes, there are disagreements among them. That doesn’t invalidate the entire Torah. It just points to plurality of understanding and perspective. You’re throwing the baby out with the bathwater by simply deciding that it’s “irrelevant and impractical.” It’s not. And it’s available for interpretation, within the guidelines given to us. That leaves us with a wide range of possible good choices. Who could ask for more?

With love to God, the Jewish people, and the world,
–SRK