Isolation is a means of Jewish existence. Anything not isolated, assimilates. If Jewish purpose is different from other nations’, then the Jewish life must be different. One cannot lead a different life while intermingling with others. Judaism is a full-day occupation. One cannot be a person like others (Gentiles) during the day, and remain Jewish at night in the private sphere. Moderately religious Jews and their atheist rabbis proclaim various "same-same but different" policies. A popular variety of such policy is economic interconnection along the ritual or demographic isolation. That won't work. People do business with trustworthy individuals. Only the predictable individuals are trustworthy. Only the individuals with readily comprehensible system of values are predictable. Throughout the history, Gentiles conducted with Jews simple business where it was enough to know of the Jews’ immediate honesty. Modern business transactions are complex and require full-fledged trust. Look at the difficulties American businessmen have doing business in China or Russia; mentality and value systems are too different for comfortable cooperation. Western (non-expatriate) investment in China remains minuscule compared to trans-Atlantic investment. A similar problem awaits the Jews if we want to be different and adhere to our own system of values. A religious Israel would be able to trade with other countries, but not engage in complex economic cooperation. No one likes odd partners.
Religious people cannot grow rich. Affluent, possibly, but not rich. Many rich hypocrites pose as religious, but they are assimilated, atheist, lack the fear of God, and conduct religion as a set of rites rather than live a religious life.
A common objection to the second Jewish state of Judea is its limited economic capacity. That is far from certain. A theocracy built around the laws of Torah would be a laissez-faire state with very low taxes and next to no regulation. Such a state can prosper in many areas from offshore banking to jewelry to tax haven. But the big question is, would Jews accept moderate economy in return for the religious and simply Jewish life? Judging by the millions of American Jews preferring assimilation and affluence of America to limited economic opportunities and Jewishness of Israel, few Jews would move to Judea.
But they will be the best Jews.
And what about rich and affluent jews wishing to invest in Judea? What about them wishing to live simple lives, with a lot of money at the banks?
There is some things money cannot buy. Anyway, we have a big waiting client: Christians around the world, wishing to buy anything from us. And they deserve to receive some of our services.
Do you mean we don't sell land to Muslims, but sell to Christians?
I mean selling them not the land, but our production and consulting about biblical knowledge
I refuse to accept that believing in some Bronze age "holy book" is the real value behind Jewishness. The over 3000 years of accumulated experience and wisdom of Jewish nation. Being a link to the ancient most civilizations of this planet. The most unique experience of being a nation without a land for 2000 years, the experience of surviving the most vicious and long-lasting persecution, the unique experience of being simultaneously Jewish and Polish, or Jewish and German, or Jewish and French, etc, the heritage of great Jewish thinkers, scientists, spiritual leaders, educators, revolutionaries, performers, inventors… and more
All of these and still much more are part of what it means to be Jewish.
How shockingly primitive to think that Torah and only Torah defines Jewishness.
And if it is Torah, than Jewishness is doomed. Torah, together with the New Testament, and Quran, and the Vedas and all the other "holy" books are destined for retirement in museums, and historical libraries. Future humanity cannot live according to commandments laid down in Bronze Age. And it should not either. Nothing good has so far come out for these "Great Religions", and if we continue them for another 100 years, there may not even be any humanity.
And to those who are going to jump on me, and accuse me of "Atheism". I want to make a clear statement: I am not an Atheist, and that a religion that is based on beliefs, belongs in the dustbin together with the belief based pseudo-science.
Great to have you back in full, Torah bashing, form. I was getting sort of worried
. As I have said before, Moses was raised as a prince in Egypt, which was a highly developed scientific civilization. We have only in the last few years begun to unlock some of the secrets with which I am convinced Moses was familiar, such as DNA coding. When, as now, it is commonplace for godless scientists to splice human genes with those of pigs, in order to produce antibodies or grow an ear for transplant, it seems a little less superstitious to prohibit eating pork, for just one example. I do not want to eat something that is part human. Descartes reasoned thusly: If I live my life as if there is a God, and I am wrong, there is no harm done; but if I live as if there is no God, and I am wrong, the harm could be very great. Moses knew things you do not — the Cartesian logic would argue that it would be best to believe this.
Ray — And yes, if one wanted to really keep kosher, it would be easiest to just eat no meat at all. But now the godless scientists are splicing insect genes into vegetables to make them resistent to the insects. So even the vegetables are defiled (though the Orthodox Union has decided this is not a problem, and I have therefore lost all respect for them). If a tomato is partially a prohibited insect, I believe it is defiled no matter what any rabbi says. And the vegans are being forced to unknowingly eat animals!
Joseph,
I just feel hopelessly frustrated. I have read your other comments and I know that you are an intelligent fellow, yet, when I write on the subject of religion, you miss my point and reply to something I have not written.
For example I have not said that "there is no God"!
Secondly Descartes argument is truly pitiful. In your quote, he is saying that he will live "as if there is God" in order to so to say have "a positive spiritual balance in afterlife". I find this reason deplorable, hypocritical, disgusting!
Thirdly, your claims that Egyptian scientists (and Moses) knew something about DNA are entirely unsupported by any evidence whatsoever.
Also, your statement that their scientific achievements were comparable to modern science are mistaken. Over millennia, Egyptians have collected a bunch of observations. However they did not have a scientific process for separating facts from myths. The beginning of such approach dates to Greek scientist and of course Greek mathematicians. The early Egyptian, Sumerian, Babylonian, Hindu, and Chinese scientist did not have a reliable process for separating facts from myths.
This is exactly my call for scientifically based religion. I am not suggesting that the existing natural science should replace religion, I am suggesting that we need to use the same criteria for discriminating between facts and myths. I do respect your intelligence, I don't even ask you to agree with me, just asking you to at least understand what I am saying.
The domain of religion, which includes spirituality, morality, human relations, and psychology must be approach through scientific process which include: observation, experimentation, logical and critical thinking and drawing conclusions and peer review. Above all, true scientific religion, must not be dogmatic, rather each aspect of it must be open to review and replacement with better data and or conclusions.
To Ray Bright,
Please tell me how you can say that "Above all…religion MUST NOT be dogmatic….and each aspect MUST BE open…", without being dogmactic yourself?
Ray,
I am not a big fan of genetically engineered food, however, please relax: A pig gen in your tomato is just as un-kosher as a pig atom in your tomato.
Statistically speaking speaking your tomato has a few thousands atoms that came from Adolph Hitlers pr*k. Now compared to that, even a pig is kosher! So you see, existence is not Kosher. You will just have to relax about that. Besides Vegetarians are on average 11 IQ points above the average population.
Josepeh,
I meant to address the previous message to you. Instead I addressed it to myself. That's really funny.
Ray — I didn't say you said you were atheist; my point about Descartes was simple game theory that can be applied to any choice we must make with limited data. I do not care if some carbon from Adolph's bier ends up in my garden, but I do care if Mengele consciously puts his genes in my tomato.
As for specific evidence that Moses knew DNA: 1 Chronicles 13:9,10.
As for evidence that Egypt was advanced scientifically: The Pyramids (and a whole, whole lot more).
Truly, this humble poster would avoid blowing his own shofar, but my IQ is much more than 11 points above average, and I eat meat. I do spend time shaved down and fasting, but the IQ seems to drop at such times, by objective measurements
.
Ray — About posts 8 and 9: The atheist psychoanalysts speak of transference. And Freudian slips. The Jungian believers know that there is only the One.
Joseph,
According to almost 100 years of measurements the European Ashkenazi Jews have and average IQ between 115 and 117. That's a whole 17 point above. Add another 11 for being Vegan, and you'd have a population with AVERAGE IQ of 126. In such a population, what is considered "genius" in normal societies would be relatively common happening!
As for Freud and Jung, I take Freud any time over Jung. Jung was a Nazi supporter, and his mystical soup had very little first hand experience to buck it up.
As for the point I made about science, forget everything, and just get the essence:observation, experiment,
critical thinking, conjecturing, induction/deduction, logical conclusions, proofs, rigorous checking of results, willingness to give up one pet beliefs as soon as they are proven mistaken.
This attitude is what I mean by "scientific". And such attitude must be the base of true religion. Domain of religion is the meaning of life and death. The highest source for any human being for for making choices.
Now, please apply your high IQ and get what I am saying. Or stop eating cadavers and give yourself additional eleven points.
Ray — Modest as I am, I must give what clinical data I have to disabuse you of your misconceptions: My IQ is still far above your computations of Askenasi vegans. Far. Jung's first-hand experiences frightened Freud. Cocaine is much more agreeable to an atheist than is LSD. Knocking on the bookcase, baby. Adolph had many supporters. Transference — you see in another what you see (or wish or fear to see) in yourself. And I do agree about eating cadavers — we should only eat what is alive or has been immediately killed
. The Temple must be reestablished!
As for science: Reestablish the Temple, remove from the vicinity all that do not follow Torah, begin to follow the Law; then observe what happens. That is the scientific method, Ray. It will blow your mind what happens.
Why the heck everytime Ray appears says the same nonsense? Ray, did you bother to READ about what was the post? Please stop your BS please, you troll..
chaim — Ray has made quite a few posts lately that were not based on the Jewish Overman theory. I think the troll name is more than a little unfair. He is sincere. Just incorrect.
Damn — When the One is invoked by serious debate, I had to put on my yalmuka (sp). And it hadn't been washed properly. Allah is merciful. Look into the sky. The Messiah is closer than any of us would ask. Peace.
Chaim,
My original post was certainly related to the subject:
I objected to the notion that "the best Jew" is necessarily a Torah-Believer.
I explained that there is, much more to being Jewish than Judaism.
I also explained that if being Jewish was depending on believing in Torah, than Jews are doomed as a nation, as Judaism, and all other Bronze Age religions are dead and living a posthumos existence. Islam is in it's death throngs which incidentally may destroy this whole planet.
So my post was very much on the topic. I proposed a different definition of a "Jew".
With that expanded definition, many more real Jews can join this very refreshing thinking coming from Obadiah.
So it is not necessary to be a believer, to appreciate Obadiah. I find Obadiah's posts rational and based on sound historical observation, and also a certain spiritual dimension which may be compatible with Obadiah's interpretation of Torah, but are perfectly sensible even without any belief in Torah.
=============
Joseph,
Since you have high IQ, you should read more carefully what I am saying. For one, I did not say that you will have a certain IQ by being Jewish or Vegan. I only said that this is the average. So if you have and IQ above average, it only means that someone else has IQ below average to balance yours.
Besides your explanation of Freud's term "Transference" is incorrect. As you see, high IQ alone is insufficient, as it is still necessary to educate oneself about the subject matter before making statements. Freud's term "Transference", refers to a particular relationship that develops between a patient and a therapist, where the patient transfers his unfulfilled relationship to his parents unto the therapist.
What you described is called "projection".
Joseph,
Chaim is probably right.
Our discussion of Freud, Jung, cocaine, LSD, Veganism etc, probably belong in a different forum. I just don't know exactly where.
Vegetarians might be 11 IQ higher than the average population (Which puts them on 31 IQ average), but Genius Carnivores are 30 IQ higher than vegetarians on Average.
Just keep reaching for the sky.
Ray — As you have figured out, I am not a Freudian, so I appreciate being corrected on my erroneous interchange of "transference" and "projection". Thanks.
Ray, always the same with you: Please explain me how you get to the magical definition of Bronze Age religion..bla bla bla…why I bother to answer you? Ovadiah, please post more, commenting to Ray is super boring…
Typical Ray comments:
Ovadiah talks about jewish law: Judaism is more than violet t shirts
Ovadiah talks about Islam: Islam is a bronze age bedouin religion that I do not like because they don't even wear violet tshirts
Ovadiah talks about anti-government: Ray says government is a kind of violet tshirt factory corporation based on the broze age religion and so not so far from Bedouins…
And so
And so
DO you really think he is no troll??
But what about the T-Shirts of Christians?!
Are they not the Bedouin wearing anti-governments pink carrot-eating fairies?
Oh, this is so confusing.
And what if you forget your violet t-shirt in the Bedouin washing machine, and it becomes bright orange? Does that mean you're now a bronze-aged Jew????
Erick:
Of Course! Ask Ray, he will surely answer!
Chaim,
My posts are not intended to offend you, or anyone, yet you come across angry, and judgmental. You really don't have to read my posts, if you hate them so much. It is better to keep your cool.
In any case, I had difficulties getting meaning out of your post. Still, it appears that you are asking "what constitutes a bronze age religion".
This subject belongs to anthropology,I will offer a very summary explanation. Here are just a few important points that come to my mind.
1. An anthropomorphic, and narcissistic Mr. God somewhere in the sky who (like a despotic autocrat) needs to be placated with constant praises.
2. The belief in REVEALED "truth", the "holy" books, "prophets", "Sons and incarnations of God", "Avatars", and other such miraculous individuals.
3. A priestly cast who's role is to mediate between Mr. God, and the general population.
4. Petitioning Mr. God by prayer. Bribing, or making a bargain with Mr. God by "good behaviors".
5. Sacrificing enjoyment in this life, for the sake of "a greater enjoyment in the next".
6. Fear (as with a powerful and neurotic monarch)being the main motivation.
7. Obedience as the highest value. Mr. God rewards obedience and punishes disobedience (which is the whole essence of the Bible)
Regretfully I don't expect you Chaim to understand any of this. Because to understand anything willingness is necessary. And I have seen only attacks and rigid attitude from you side. Still I try anyway, and even though you will not understand perhaps someone will.
=================================
To Joseph,
You asserted that it is dogmatic of me to claim that a modern religion MUST NOT be dogmatic, and MUST BE OPEN to … etc.
The phrase MUST BE, is used in the same sense as let's say the sum of squares of the two legs of a triangle MUST BE equal to the square of the hypotenuse in order for the angle be 90 degree, or "Distilled water, under normal pressure MUST BE heated up to 100 degree C, if our intention is to boil it.
I hope this examples make it clear that in which sense I am using the phrase "MUST BE".
Joseph,
I agree, that what you propose is a scientific experiment. However, I would not be very excited about it.
It seem to me that what you are missing is that many non-Torah Jews, such as myself, can be devoted to their nation, can have strong attachment to Jewish history and therefore to the Temple Mount. In some post Obadiah made a good analogy: Russians don't need to be Orthodox Christians in order to have attachment to Kremlin, or the "Holy Triunion" Church.
I certainly wish for a place where Jews can freely practice Judaism. I totally support that, but I can't comprehend the need to impose one's religious and moral rules on others. Is it not enough to follow them for oneself?
All interaction with others should be governed by the Golden Rule. Such attitude would lead to a very healthy Jewish nation, that would indeed be a light for others.
Eric,
Average Vegetarian IQ in America is 111 points. You are approximately correct when saying that that "the IQ of the Genius carnivores is 30 points above the Vegetarians on average". This would put the average carnivore genius at 141 points. Just one point above the official definition of "genius".
In any case, low fat vegan diet results in low lipid content in blood, and better transport of oxygen to the brain. Give it a try
Dear Ray,
I meant what I wrote as a joke, so don't take any offense. I still think that the average population's IQ is well below 100, regardless of the IQ of vegetarians.
I have been a vegetarian for a while, but it did not influence my genius either way.
Drinking the blood of young christian boys, though, have raised my IQ by a massive 150 points, to the point I can now clearly see that intelligent people show more mercy towards animals than unintelligent ones.
To Ray:
Well Ray, you are right. I have a major psychological problem: Hate dumb and ignorant people. But it has a solution, so I decided to act on it. It's called "teaching". Teaching people like you that writes here just because is for free. SOme point for your understanding and learning:
G-d is not a ego centrist deity. At lest the Hebrew's G-d.
G-d gave us life, and knowledge. But, as usual, men like you, ignorant and arrogant, screw it.
Of course G-d won't appear at every corner telling you how to live. He already did it very clearly. But, Ray, you know, some arrogant men tried to "over wise" his words, and then create a full array of BS, not even bothering in reading slowly what he said. Some ignorant men though if he does not beat us every time we do wrong, then he is not present. But, he is, indeed, very present. Every time you breathe, he holds your air. Every time you eat, he feeds you. Every time you basic mortal mind thinks you are over wising him, giving names as Mr G-d or something like that, he feel sorry for you.
Because he made to you, he knew you from the times before you were born, and you still think you are smarter than him.
Maybe everyone in this world could have a "Bronze Age religion" as you name it. I have it.
Bedouins have it. A lot of Bnei Israel have it.
But you, small and insignificant grasshopper, think that because you learn a failed book or some failed books written by men, can call him "mr G-d" , make comments about our belief as if you were over a knowledge tower, I also feel sorry about you.
An advice from a fellow jew. Study. Learn.But really knowledge, not crappy books. If you need help, just ask.
Anyway, you miss the blog. You are not discussing Judaism. You are discussing Humanism, or Haskala, or any of those BS.
May you find some help, because you are far away from the truth…
Chaim,
You are not in a position to "help" or "teach". Your tone is to hateful. You can't call someone "dumb and ignorant" and then proceed to teaching them. Obviously all your teachings are just acting out your anger.
And just between you and I, this is a secret, I find your spelling G-d. Is your G-d so dumb that he cannot guess what you are saying? why is "-" any better than "o"?
For your understanding:
I am not in any way against God. I am not claiming that "God does not exist". I actually love what you say that "every time I breathe, God holds my air".
My reference was only to Mr. God who is described in Torah. That Mister, is certainly a neurotic, despot who punishes,punishes,punishes,punishes, and punishes, for every trifle. He even punishes 3rd generation of Jews for what their grand fathers did. He even punishes a new-born baby for king Davids trespass. Big parts of Torah are beautiful, poetic, even wise, but equally big parts are ridiculous. Of course this makes it better than Koran, which is 99.99% idiotic crap without any wisdom, or poetic quality.
TO Ray:
I have to Insist:
Study the Torah, then you'll see everything you write is nonsense. Have you meditated about the fact that you conception of G-d is a Christian one?
Think about it, then act. I Do can help you, guiding you about what to read and learn.
Because you have to begin from scratch.
About vegetarians, couldn't the correlation be the reverse? That is, smart people experiment with lifestyles and more-than-average proportion of them opt for vegetarianism. So perhaps, not vegetarians are smart, but some of the smart become vegetarians.
It was Pascal's wager, not Descartes.
If you want to understand the unique view of Judaism regarding Torah and its oral torah–Gemara, I suggest speaking with one who has some authoritative learning, rather than the mental mutual masturbation that appears to go on here. Speak with an Orthodox rabbi of some reputation. Direct your concerns to him; and then–here's the hard part–listen to what he has to say.
It was Spinoza who said that the first essential of discussion or debate is to be able to state your adversary's opinion–to HIS satisfaction.
These endless and ignorant arguments are pathetic.
Chaim,
You please understand that I AM Jewish, and I do love my people (the Jews), I don't want to hurt the feelings of the religious Jews including yourself. My ideal of a Jewish country is that the religious Jews are given full freedom to practice their religion, and their practices are fully accepted and supported (for example the Sabath)
, and at the same time I want the religious Jews to giving the full freedom to the non-religious Jews to live as they wish. There should be enough space and respect for both.
You are saying that I am referring to the Christian Mr. God. But as far as I am concerned Christianity is really a Jewish sect. (A messianic Jewish sect to be precise.) I hope one day Christians will realize that they are Judaic. They are Jews, and only then there will real be peace between Christians and Jews. Otherwise Christians are secretly jealous of Jews, because "their" bible says that "Jews are the chosen people".
So when I a describe the "Mr. God" he is Jewish and therefore also Christian. His character is clearly described in the Torah.
The important thing is that you don't have to agree with me on anything. I can share with you what I see and what I think, but please don't think that i am trying to convince you. I have no objection to you believing in what I consider myths:
So these are just my thoughts:I read Torah, and I find tremendously beautiful stories, parables, allegories. Also some valuable historical information. And I also find a character of Mr. God which corresponds to the level of development of the ancient Hebrews: An anthropomorphic Mr. God, gets angry all the time and keeps punishing for disobedience behaving like a neurotic and narcissistic autocrat. Right from the start: he punishes Adam and Even for disobeying. What is this obsession with obedience? Very childish, very immature, very feudal, too. The motive of obedience is the most important motive in the whole Torah. When Jews obey Mr.God, he rewards them, when they disobey he punishes them. I would say that this is a typical Bronze Age Mr. God.
To Denny,
You are right that all we know is that there is correlation. We do not know about if there is a cause and effect relationship.
However it is true that low content of fat in the blood, (corresponding to the low-fat vegan diet)allows for up to 20% transport of oxygen to the brain (and to the back of retina), as compared to the standard American Diet. This seems to indicate that there may be a cause and effect relationship between diet and intelligence.
TO Ray:
Absolutely wrong: Christians are not a sect of Jews. Today Jews are a sect of Bnei Israel, and Christians are a Gentile religion with some traces of Jesus plain name, almost not Jesus teachings, and the theory of 2 Gods: The Hebrew G-d, as you describe it in your posts, and the Christian god, a sweet and careful father. SO you have to check your beliefs agains this theory, know where it comes from, and how you were influenced.
Think Twice
Ray, are you saying fat Americans are stupider?
About time…
Moshe — Once again, this site puts me in the pleasing situation where I must express my gratitude for being corrected. Pascal, not Descartes. And I will not even try to make a bad joke about paleolithic computer languages. Still, I think it is a good rule of thumb, whoever said it. The problem for myself, and perhaps others, who were not raised Jewish, is similar to the same problem of the outsider who tries to study Christianity or Islam: The scriptures are there for everyone to read, but there is constant, often violent, disagreement about what the plain words of the scriptures mean. Americans have the same problem concerning the Constitution — its language is very clear, but the lawyers on the Supreme Court have perverted its meaning. I am very interested in Jewish oral tradition, but the Torah, as written by hand, letter for letter, from the beginning of Jewish history, is the Law. It would please me greatly for you, or anyone else, to point me towards a rabbi that takes the Torah, as given to Moses, as the literal Law of the One given to the Hebrews. What I have found is that even the Orthodox spend the greatest amount of their time finding excuses why they are not required to do what the Law clearly commands. Of course, that is just the impression of a Gentile who has read the Torah, and who sees Orthodox guys who will not trim their beards or their temple locks or ride in a car on Saturday, but who do nothing about a Mosque sitting on top of the Temple. Mental masturbation? That is such an easy setup, I will not even pursue it. Supposedly Orthodox rabbis tell me it is OK to eat insects that are spliced into tomatoes. And God only knows what genetic modifications have been made to meat products they certify as "kosher". I guess I am just missing something that the "oral" torah would make clear. When al-Aqsa comes down, I will be very interested in listening to any rabbis that were involved.
Ray — In your post at 26 you attributed to me something from Pierre's post at 8. I actually agree with you. Rebuild the Temple, follow the Law, watch what happens. Just good science. It will be difficult to get volunteers who are willing to take the test of true Levites, though — not painful, but fatal in 11 out of 12 cases.
Erick — "And what if you forget your violet t-shirt in the Bedouin washing machine, and it becomes bright orange? Does that mean you’re now a bronze-aged Jew????" No, it means that you are meant to support the University of Tennessee Volunteers Football Team in the South Eastern Conference Championship Game (by eating a kosherly prepared steak)!
Ah, Joseph. Now it is even more confusing.
I think I'm gonna become a self-hating Jew. Now, if I could only find that 'self' guy…
Erick — Happily, I believe you joke about the self-hating Jew thing. As the ultimate contradiction, a Buddhist that believes in God, I can tell you that the search for that "self" guy leads only to madness. The One told Moses, "I am that I am". Only the One exists. Each of us is part of the One, and yet, when all is gone, only the One remains. Does that mean Joseph is the One, Erick is the One? Yes and No. Joseph exists only in a specific time and place. The One is beyond time. I can loath Joseph at certain times because of things that Joseph has done in relation to others. But there are really no others, if all is One. How can I loath the One for doing something to no one? Truly madness follows this train of thought. Therefore the One gave his creatures the Law. And if a creature finds an orange t-shirt in the laundry, it means "Go Vols"!
Lol
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