I love Canada and Netherlands. They are nice tolerant countries. It's hard to explain to their tolerant Jews why should we rid Israel of Arabs and deviants. It's like talking to people from another planet. Isn't a tolerant all-permissiveness a better policy?
No. Permissiveness knows no boundaries. That's especially a problem when tolerance is coupled with formal justice and moral subjectivism. Justices ask, Why not? and cannot find rational answer; irrational answers are not codified. Tolerance started with accepting other religions and not ostracizing homosexuals. The sphere of tolerance was continuously expanded. Tolerating all religions, why not tolerate Islam? Tolerating homosexuality, why not accept gay unions? Soon their countries are flooded with Muslim immigrants and the cornerstone institute of family is undermined by same-sex marriages. Judges will find no reason to prohibit polygamy and the only reason I've heard against bestiality is animal rights; shouldn't rape a sheep, you see. Faced with obvious immorality, leftists either have to admit their policy of tolerance wrong, or embrace the deviations as beneficial. Sure they prefer the last option. Thus school courses on homosexuality and hysteria about AIDS frightening decent people out of single bars – for they don't know that AIDS is restricted to homosexuals and drug addicts. Tolerance is a policy of no barriers, and such policies are prone to exploitation. Canada had no problem with massive immigration from many countries until Arabs flooded it. Tolerance benefits generic societies in perhaps 99% of instances, but inability to confront vaguely defined evil in 1% of cases brings societies down. Intolerant societies are much more durable because they are conservative. All innovations have to pass through the barrier of initial hostility – or be tried elsewhere. Intolerant countries are not on the edge of social experimentation and generally are moderate economic performers, but they are safe and comfortable to vast majority of their citizens.
Israel tried tolerance with her Arabs – but the tolerance only provokes them. They exploit Israeli tolerance by massive illegal construction, tax evasion, crime, and disloyalty. The line between tolerance and weakness is too fine for a state to dance.
Israel cannot be tolerant. She must be a Jewish country. That's her reason for existence. Think of it as a zoning regulation. Arabs, homosexuals, and Peace Now members can live thirty miles away from their current residences – in Jordan or Lebanon. Or in Canada, if it would have them.
Well put, Obadiah. Have an easy fast.
Obadiah, thanks for this post.
I generally agree, however, there is one bit that isn't true:
"for they don’t know that AIDS is restricted to homosexuals and drug addicts."
That's not true, right? Certainly AIDS spread rapidly through homosexuality — if you remember, the disease was originally called GRIDS (gay-related immuno-deficiency syndrome) — however, now that AIDS has spread, anyone can get it, even heterosexuals.
(Perhaps you were making a general, blanket statement on the odds of getting AIDS?)
Q: What is the essence of Judaism?
A: Don’t do unto others what is hateful to you. The rest is just commentary.
Another way to put it is that there is difference between freedom and license. License is distinguished from freedom as it takes someone else’s freedom away. Thus one does not have the license to take someone else’s property.
According to these simple principles, it is none of my business, if two adult males chose to stick their penises into each other’s anuses. Provided that I don’t have to witness such events.
I personally find it somewhat revolting having to see two males kissing each other on the mouth etc, and I would request that such behavior is confined to privacy, or to specially designated area where the majority of people do not feel offended (such as gay camps).
When it comes to marriages, it is a different matter, as marriage implies having children.
Children do need to be protected, and therefore no gay marriages. (Gay civil unions for the purpose of sharing the finances and inheritance rights are fair and don’t take anybody’s freedom away.)
However we need to stop propagating the politically correct lie that gay sex is normal. No, it is not normal, and it is not genetic either. I have indubitable proofs (though there is not sufficient space for this in my reply here) that homosexuality is a psychological imbalance caused by early childhood traumas.
When it comes to the Muslims, the Golden Rule breaks down, as their religion, unlike Judaism, is clearly against it. Islam commands their faithful to dominate or kill the “unbelievers”. Therefore the followers of the Muhammadan cult of submission must not share the same country with non-Muhammadans.
Tolerance of differences must end where it leads to take-over by a fascist group (Muslims, Nazis, Maoists, etc.)
Israel must be a place where Jews are allowed to live according to their religious tradition. However the religious Jews must not impose their morality and ideology on other Jews. This would be the end of Israel. For survival of the Jewish state, it is essential that religious and non-religious Jews learn to respect each others.
Of course Muslims are a danger to the West and Arabs / Muslims a danger to Israel. On this I agree with Obadiah. They want to KILL us and destroy our nations to submit to the Ummah.And bestiality is NOT a sexual orientation. It is situational and behavioral strictly. So to ban it is NOT to "oppress" others. Accepting homosexuality does NOT put a society on a slippery slope as you fear. Other cultures have accepted it without people fornicating with animals in the street or with their own family members. Some ultra orthodox Jews marry their first cousins. I dont think that is "OK". Morality can be found in our brains through evolution. You dont need the Torah for it. Some things in the torah are in fact IMMORAL. So it is time to grow up and use your brain, not a man made document written by scientifically illiterate people thousands of years ago.
To say kick gays out of Israel is cruel and immoral. Gays are your children, cousins, brothers and sisters and yes, sometimes mothers and fathers. Science ALREADY KNOWS that being born gay is the biological equivalent of being left handed. Scientists know that left-handedness and being gay in NOT totally genetic, but there are other factors- prenatal factors. So this talk of it not being genetic is NOT the same thing as saying that it is not biological.
So you wish to banish 4-7 percent of the population that is gay?
As far as AIDS goes, homosexuality has existed as long as humanity. AIDS came about because of a CULTURAL change on the globe. Air travel for the masses, blood transfusions, a sexual revolution that says promiscuity is OK, the popularization of bathhouses which acted as a conduit for disease among gay men.
I believe if gays were not shunned, and they could get married and were expected to , AIDS would not have occured to gay men on the level that it did.
If gays have psychological trauma, it is because many are sadly rejected by their families. Many struggle against their true nature. THAT is not healthy. Denial of one's sexuality will cause addictions. Is there any doubt that if there were no heterosexual marriage, disease rate would go up, sexual excesses would go up, psychological difficulties would go up. Then add a message that who you are is wrong, diseased, disgusting,religion hates your very being, you are not a part of society. Add a message of "Try to change who you are" even though that is scientifically disproven: And you will certainly damage people's very souls. But you dont care how you damage gay people. Just because something is a "tradition" does not make it justified.
As far as marriage goes: where "children are part of the expectation", I say would you deny an infertile heterosexual couple the right to marry? Or an elderly couple past reproductive years the right to marry? Wouldnt that be cruel? Similarly, gay people do NOT have a choice on being gay. I did NOT choose to be gay. I can choose to not be promiscuous. - I have been in a relationship w/ my partner for the past 13 years. ( I am 37) Humanity along with sexuality is on a spectrum. Encourage gay people to make the right and healthy choices, like stable relationships, inclusion in the community. Reject drugs and promiscuity.And stop giving them cruel choices which only do damage.
Shalom, I have linked to you.
Not touching on the gay subject - strong, secure countries can allow a degree of tolerance, but Israel cannot.
And no country should tolerate its enemies inside its borders - like Israel so absurdly tolerates neo-nazy slavs, and hostile Arabs.
Thanks!
To Bill: "Some things in the Torah are in fact IMMORAL." Too bad for morality. But I don't think you're talking here of practical, proven morality, but rather about moralism, idealistic notions never practiced on large scale. Let's discuss this point. Where, do you think, the Torah contradicts practical morality?
To Judah: "Provided that I don’t have to witness such events." That's exactly what Judaism says. Homosexuals are only condemned when witnessed. That is, when they make their behavior public. If you agree that public display of homosexual intercourse is abominable, you might agree that public display of homosexual affection is seemingly repulsive.
"A: Don’t do unto others what is hateful to you. The rest is just commentary." You omitted the most important continuation: "Go and learn!" That was the essence of Hillel's answer.
Danny if I may go a bit off-topic - Do you know if Obadiah is considering writing about the recent cases of young neo-nazies in Israel?
(Though I would appreciate a reply by mail or anything)
Feel free to delete this comment after reading it
To Judah: I can't remember off-head, but I also read several studies that claimed that HIV is predominantly spread among homosexuals and drug-addicts.
Trying to find these studies fast, I chanced onto this interesting scientific-sounding article on gay immorality http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=Is01B1 Some excerpts below.
HIV/AIDS Among Homosexuals. The human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) is responsible for causing AIDS, for which there exists no cure.
· Homosexual men are the largest risk category. The CDC reports that homosexuals comprise the single largest exposure category of the more than 600,000 males with AIDS in the United States. As of December 1999, "men who have sex with men" and "men who have sex with men and inject drugs" together accounted for 64 percent of the cumulative total of male AIDS cases.
Homosexual Promiscuity. Studies indicate that the average male homosexual has hundreds of sex partners in his lifetime:
· A.P. Bell and M.S. Weinberg, in their classic study of male and female homosexuality, found that 43 percent of white male homosexuals had sex with 500 or more partners, with 28 percent having 1,000 or more sex partners.[9]
· In their study of the sexual profiles of 2,583 older homosexuals published in Journal of Sex Research, Paul Van de Ven et al., found that only 2.7 percent claimed to have had sex with one partner only. The most common response, given by 21.6 percent of the respondents, was of having a hundred-one to five hundred lifetime sex partners.[10]
· A survey conducted by the homosexual magazine Genre found that 24 percent of the respondents said they had had more than a hundred sexual partners in their lifetime. The magazine noted that several respondents suggested including a category of those who had more than a thousand sexual partners.[11]
· In his study of male homosexuality in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, M. Pollak found that "few homosexual relationships last longer than two years, with many men reporting hundreds of lifetime partners."[12]
To Erick: This type of things usually go into News section. Here it is: http://www.samsonblinded.org/news/arab-mk-were-the-only-nazis-allowed-here-1116
"And no country should tolerate its enemies inside its borders - like Israel so absurdly tolerates neo-nazy slavs, and hostile Arabs."
Erik, I agree w/ you one hundred percent.
to #11:
The studies you link to are from the family research council. They are a far-right wing group in the U.S. who are known for being fast, loose and selective at best w/ the facts to suit their agenda. They present poorly designed and non-representative sample studies to justify their belief that gay people deserve no rights. Heterosexuals in Africa have a terrible HIV rate. Is anyone saying they should not get married? Quite the opposite. Marriage and stability should be ENCOURAGED to stem the tide of disease!! The same should be for gay men.
My argument is: gays should be EXPECTED to get married rather than live furtive conflicted lives. What I said in my last argument regarding gay marriage still holds true even if the "studies" above are true. Men without the option of getting married whether straight or gay will of course be promiscious, use more drugs and live unstable lives. This is NOT surprising.
To Danny (#8):
I think slavery and polygomy are morally problematic.
Slavery for the injustice, brutality and primitiveness of the practice.
And polygamy creates a pool of men who cannot get married because the wealthier men get 2, 3 , 4, or more wives. The poorer men get left with no partner and will on average create havoc, become angry, frustrated, get involved in crime, terror and destablize societies. We see this all too tragically in the middle east/ muslim world. Ive never seen a sexually content suicide bomber!! They wouldnt be looking for their 72 virgins otherwise. Their only hope it seems is to get sex in heaven.
To Judah and Danny (#2 and 9)
No one should be having PUBLIC SEX. Homosexual or heterosexual. If people of the opposite sex can display affection, 2 men or 2 women should be able to as well, regardless of anyone's discomfort level. I believe everyone should be held to the same standard. If you said it is inappropriate for hetero couples to kiss on the mouth in public, then of course it is only fair same sex couples should be given similar prohibitions.
I am personally irritated when I see couples of any sexual orientation kiss on the mouth in public. I find "ugly" people kissing particularly gross but would never say they should be hidden any more than "attractive" people. LOL
Gay marriage does not take rights away from heterosexuals. It harms no one and will greatly reduce problems associated with unsettled lives: Sexually transmitted disease , drug use, etc. Not only do I believe it should be legal… gay men and women should be ENCOURAGED to get married and settle into stable lives.
I agree with the premise of the article here on Arab Muslim culture. Tolerance of Arabs/Muslims in Israel simply encourages them to try to remove the Jewish character of the state. One constantly sees dispicable treasonous behavior. Their culture at this stage of history sadly is incompatible with democracy and hostile to non-Muslims. A huge number of conflicts in this world are located along the greatest political fault line in the world: where the muslim countries / population live adjacent to non-muslim societies/ nations. Transfer is the most compassionate solution for Muslims living in Israel because it will minimize conflict for the world's only jewish state. Arabs and muslims have plenty of (crappy) homelands to choose from.
To Ray Bright #3
Science is moving in the direction opposite your premise "gay sex is abnormal" Rather it is on the normal spectrum of human sexual orientation– as is handedness, right or left.And is certainly 100 percent biological. Genetics is just one possible biological explanation for sexuality or handedness. I agree, genetics is NOT the sole explanation for people like me being gay. I think it is maybe 50-75 percent at most. Tantalizing research shows that right handed boys are more likely to be gay, the more older brothers they have. This is not true for left handed boys who all are more likely to be gay (regardless of the number of older brothers they have.) Gay men have on average different proportion/ sized fingers and even the direction of the "swirl" on top of one's head! Most experts see evidence that the Pre-natal environment is the determining factor of sexual orientation. Early trauma is simply not capable of changing the very structure of the hypothalmus- the part of the brain responsible for the determination of sexual orientation, among other physical features on the body itself!!!
Bill, I think you brought up a lot of good points.
I can only wonder how many partners do promiscuous hetrosexuals (Men and women) have these days, and in some places in Africa about a third of the population has HIV (Or more. I dare not assume).
You killed me with that one.
That's how it is on television, though
To Bill: Well, in practice every society has a huge pool of singles and divorcees, so polygamous Muslim societies don't really have much of a problem of poor men being unable to find themselves wives.
Prohibition of polygamy and bestiality is purely moral, and the attempts to rationalize it are futile.
But if we accept moral prohibitions in case of polygamy and bestiality, might we not accept them in other cases of sexual activity?
But I want to stress again that Judaism doesn't punish homosexuality per se, but rather pubic displays of it. I, for example, have a problem not with gays, but with their parades in Jerusalem. And yes, I do know that most of Israeli homosexuals ignore these parades.
Allow me just one - not neglectable data – AIDS is NOT RESTRICTED to homosexuals and drug addicts. Not even in the Western World. The actual tendency of AIDS in the Western World is the spreading among heterosexual partners: a husband goes to a prostitute and after that infects his on wife (who would imagine that not all heterosexuals rule themselves thought chastity?). It’s true that in the Western countries a large percentage of AIDS patients are male homosexuals and drug addicts, but in Africa, where more than 60% of the AIDS infected people live, most of them are actually heterosexual men. In India, now the country with the largest number of AIDS infected population in the World, most are female prostitutes and theirs male clients. And also in many countries of East Asia. In China, many thousands were infected by untested blood transfusions. And so on. Check your data.
If you hate gays so much – they don’t have my sympathy for that matter either – what do you think about cleaning out the thousands of gays in Tel Aviv?
And if 7-10% of the human kind is homosexual, you might even have to come to terms with someone in your own family… who knows…
The post doesn't say that AIDS is restricted to homosexuals. AIDS is just predominantly spread among homosexuals and drug addicts. You're right about Africa, perhaps they should have had less sex with monkeys. I don't know about India.
I think very positively about cleansing the Land of Israel from gays. But as the first step, none should be allowed to parade in Jerusalem.
Looking at hundreds of my friends and acquaintances, I doubt that 7% of the population is homosexual.
Danny, I think the post does imply AIDS is restricted to homosexuals. Here's the bit in question,
"Thus school courses on homosexuality and hysteria about AIDS frightening decent people out of single bars – for they don’t know that AIDS is restricted to homosexuals and drug addicts."
I agree that it was originally spread mostly through AIDS and that homosexuals and drug addicts are especially prone to the virus, but that's not the same as being restricted to them.
Danny, now that you have fixed the RSS feed (thanks!), I no longer need to be subscribed via email to new posts. I clicked the 'unsubscribe' link in the email, but I get taken to a page that displays the following error: