Danny, I take it back. You are not a libertarian. Libertarians believe that as long as force is not used, it is not a crime. There are all kinds of problems with moralizing the law. I could go on and on about it. It leads to a “1984″ situation. Consensual sex should not be criminalized. It’s not the business of government. Moreover, there is one law that trumps all of the others. “Thou Shall Not Kill.”

Sorry, Shelly. It’s “Thou shalt not murder.” But as a “Jewish-American,” you’re not really expected to know much about nor actually practice Judaism.

Shelly,

I too believe that adults should be allowed to be involved in any consensual activity as long as it does not affect anyone outside that consensus. Thus sex between two homos, in the privacy of their home, drugs, etc, should be part of freedom.
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However Obadiah is bringing an interesting legal angle to this conversation: He is saying that if two homos are private about their sex, there are no witnesses. Therefore it seems that Obadiah is saying that the laws pertaining to morality are only enforced when such “immoral” behavior is public. Indeed personally I would far prefer not having to look at two men indulging in passionate kissing in a public place where I would have to look at it (like StarBucks:).
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Another very interesting point Obadiah is making is that the extremely cruel punishment if practiced very rarely, may be a small cost for having a crime-free society. This is interesting point to think about. Not necessarily agree with.
I think Obadiah is VERY mistaken about the “morality” in Iran. When I was there, my impression was that about 80% of men were homosexual!
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What I don’t understand, is why would we even care about all that. All we should care about is that they don’t nuke us, or in any other way attack us. Let them indulge in homosexuality.

Shelly,
I don’t know Hebrew, and I have seen two different versions of the commandment:
1. Though shell not kill
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2.Though shell not murder
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They are very different, as the first one would prevent a war in self-defense. It would even prevent killing animals, which we know ancient priests did.
So perhaps the second translation is more accurate?

Not so cruel Iran? Iran has come into a strong strategic position helped by outsiders.
I doubt that morality is the issue but rather the ambitions of those that hold and trade in power. Unity and determination of the people in Israel is essential to survive and of course, I am sad to say,” The finger on that nuclear button.” is the only deterrent.

It is “Thou shalt not murder”

Ovadiah writes:
“Those who decry executions in Iran forget that those are mostly the Torah’s sentences: execution for adultery and homosexuality,”

Please cite the Law telling to execute homosexuals. Adultery is communal execution. Please cite the law RIGHT. But before doing it, understand it.

Ray:
I just wanted to add that I would prefer not having to look at two *anything* passionately kissing in a public place, regardless of their gender.
And in general, despite the fact that I favor executions to wasting tax money to keep dangerous people alive, there is one reason not to be harsh and quick in judgment:
You could be wrong.
If you have the wrong guy, and you put him in prison, you can release him.
If you’ve executed him… well…

Albert: Executions are murder. They involve the following: a killing, done with intent to kill knowing the act will result in death and it is done with premeditation.
What’s the difference? Well, it is STATE sanctioned. To me the excuse is bullshit. It is murder. Man deciding for man, not God, what can be done with a person’s life.

Ray: God gave the people dominion over animals. Genesis.

You’re a pacifist then Shelly?

Easy to be a pacifist in the US.

Shelly: I loved it when Eichmann was hanged.
Judaism differentiates between killing and murder.
Chaim: You’re arguing a fine point, whether caret is execution or banishment.

Danny:
Keret is used several more times as “expulse” or root out in the Tanach. Because the homosexual does not deserve to die, since he has not voluntarily chosen to be like this, it’s a birth default. But in Iran, they HANG those people, and hanging is a modern way of killing, not know by Hebrews (in order to kill, for Hebrews, you have to shed blood)

I am not a pacifist. I am a libertarian. If you want to know more about that philosophy read: “The Law” by Frederic Bastiat. I also am acquainted with God’s remarks to Samuel when the people of Israel had a King.

I am a believer in the Messiah and I think his time is soon. I believe that Israel has the right to remove the Muslims from conquered territories and to exert it’s will in as forceful a manner as possible. We Hebrews are a tribe(s) and are entitled to our land. We should go back to the free market economy during Judges.

The two greatest evils in the world are ORGANIZED religion and government. Islam combines the two.

Shelly; Your argument is VERY strange:
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“Dominion” means “lordship” or “kingship”.
English queen has dominion over her subjects.
However last I heard, she has not she eaten of them them…

Shelly, you say
“The two greatest evils in the world are ORGANIZED religion and government. Islam combines the two.”
I agree about your the first point.
However I cannot conceive a society without some, or other, form of government. What is your idea?

Dominion in the case of animals means that people can eat them. And I guess if the Queen wants to eat her subjects, she could probably find a way.

The government that governs least, governs best. I am for the limited government contemplated by the U.S. Constitution with some changes that have been learned over the years concerning preventing the way our government over the years has been able to ignore the Constitution. In other words I’m for limited government. Bastiat explains it best. Ron Paul’s new book–Revolution–A Manifesto is good.

America was never contemplated to be an Empire and it’s imperial ambitions threaten the world. We now have troops in 130 countries.

Read Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine and the Utilitarians–John Stuart Mill, etc. For Israel, I would go back to the free market era of the Judges.

Shelly, Yes, organized religion is a bad thing. But its more complex then that. To make a short story of it, if you can recall a group called Erev Rav. They where a group of non-Jew’s who ‘converted’ to ‘Judaism’ at the time of Moshe and the exodus. The reason for ‘organized religion’ was to teach the entire world about the Creator. Was this supposed to happen? Well it had to, because this wicked group named Erev Rav kept the Torah to themselves, therefor haShem had to have plan 2 and 3. Xtianity and Islam. Now the plan is finished, and hopefully the long overdue Mashiakh. That’s the simple version. It was not supposed to happen that way, but when people mess with derech haShem (path or way of G-d) He has to implement some other alternative. So, read the Torah carefully and do your best to keep it. So simple, but organized religion has screwed it up royally.

The American constitution was put in place to keep the sheep from organizing a coup. It gives them a ‘vote’ in order the make them feel as if they mean something to the elitists thatsall it was put in for, control, control, control and it works like a charm. The alternative works like a charm too!!
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Ron Paul? Read about him, obviously one has not stumbled across his opinions of Jews now!

Chaim, what are your ’sources’ please.

Shiloh, I already told you, I need your email..

Chaim: For the vast majority of deviants, homosexuality is a lifestyle matter rather than birth defect.
Shelly, Chaim: please take your discussion into the forum

Danny:
Most of the homosexuals I have spoke with, they cannot change they condition. I mean, voluntarily.
Since they are attracted by same sex people, Nature logics says it’s a defect. That is nature logic. What our law says?
G-d says: grow and multiply. They cannot multiply by same sex intercourse. G-d says: If thou follow my commands, no women among you will be steril.
So the same G-d cannot bless you with one hand and in the other hand bless unnatural acts.
One more thing: Our G-d for sure is consistent about what he said in the Law.

And don’t see your point. For homosexuals, sex is recreational rather than procreative. Judaism regulates recreational sex, too.

Well, my point is, sterile is a condition for not following his law. Pure recreational sex is sterile too. The main difference lays in the fact that sooner o later a heterosexual couple having recreational sex born children.

Slavery was also a punishment he forgot to mention. (for debts etc).

It wasn’t slavery, actually, but a servitude of no more than six years

you just dont’ get it. If Iranian leaders execute a few teenage homosexuals, its just becuase they want to get the support of Moslems in other Islamic countries by pretending to be extra religious. A very smart idea for attracting Moslem massess,and then training them to become suicide bombers. Adultery, homosexuality and sextual harrasment of women is extremly high. Even very religious women who cover themselves with black veils are jealous of European and American women who no matter how they are dressed, are not constantly approached and even touched and harrased by men in the street. In other countries at least men go only to specific women in specific places for adultery. In Iran every women is made to feel like a whore.

That’s not my experience about Iran

Danny, its because you never lived there!there used to be high morality but the Islamists destroyed the whole thing. They turned the country into just another Cuba where the authorities themselves have mafia rings sending girls to Dubai and other Arabic countires. Islamism is just the other side of Leftism. Both promote the same thing but Islamists are smarter. They pretend to be over rightous but acting worse than the Leftists/Communists. They put girls in jail for not wearing the right color headscarf, but then these girls get raped in jail !! (There’s been several cases just during the last few months.one case about a young lady doctor who got arrested becuase she was walking with her boyfriend and then raped and killed a day after her arrest. they told her family she commited suicide while under arrest!) the most intersting news these days is about this high ranking officer who is in charge of arresting ‘immodest’ women, being arrested in a house with six naked women! he then commited suicide but was saved!

Having plenty of brothels in Israel, I’m not in the position to condemn Iran on that matter.

Its not about the people, its about the rulers. forcing people to dress the way they demand just becuase they say so ( and not becuase its really against Islam or modesty, sentencing women to stoning for adurtery, making people listen to religious speeches all the time on the TV and radio and other media,brainwashing people to hate Israel and the West for the purpose of their political fascist agenda, using country’s resources for unholy purpose of funding terrorism around the world and fighting fierce battles among each other for power, and money which proves they don’t have even the smallest belief in all that religion they talk about. Remember that they dont’ stone women in Western countries or Israel.

“Many more Iranians die in car accidents than from enforcement of the moral law.” To me, that sounds like a great start!!!!! Die for a moral law??? how Barbaric….. Iranians should be sold into Slavery, than shot after the work is done Islam is a worthless religion and persians and arabs are a worthless rase, a cancer to the Human race.