Comments on: Have them go http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm A Machiavellian Perspective on the Middle East Conflict Fri, 19 Mar 2010 13:00:06 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Ray Bright http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm/comment-page-1#comment-112735 Ray Bright Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:04:47 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm#comment-112735 Danny, FAITH does not equal belief. You can have faith in cause of the Jewish nation. Faith in Justice. Faith that you are doing the right thing and do it. Many Germans had faith in Nazism and Russians had faith in communism: both fought and gave their life for it. Faith does not need any god. So stop being divisive, believing and secular Jews need to stand together! Danny,

FAITH does not equal belief.
You can have faith in cause of the Jewish nation. Faith in Justice. Faith that you are doing the right thing and do it.

Many Germans had faith in Nazism and Russians had faith in communism: both fought and gave their life for it. Faith does not need any god. So stop being divisive, believing and secular Jews need to stand together!

]]> By: VL http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm/comment-page-1#comment-91039 VL Fri, 09 May 2008 07:44:34 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm#comment-91039 Albert, If it was a Jewish army rather than a christian one like currently, more haredim would serve. Just as they are entering the work force in greater numbers, so too they will enter other fields and especially the military if it was actually a Jewish army. If the haredi was guaranteed separation of sexes and availability of all mitzvot to be kept while serving, they would serve in higher numbers, but only in a Jewish army that does not tie soldier's arms behind backs in fear of hurting the enemy and a Jewish army which would send in cover fire and air support irregardless of enemy "civilian" terrorist arabs. _ A christian "war of mercy" which unnecessarily endangers the lives of one's own soldiers was the downfall of Israel in Lebanon and prevents the IDF from being Jewish. Albert, If it was a Jewish army rather than a christian one like currently, more haredim would serve. Just as they are entering the work force in greater numbers, so too they will enter other fields and especially the military if it was actually a Jewish army. If the haredi was guaranteed separation of sexes and availability of all mitzvot to be kept while serving, they would serve in higher numbers, but only in a Jewish army that does not tie soldier’s arms behind backs in fear of hurting the enemy and a Jewish army which would send in cover fire and air support irregardless of enemy “civilian” terrorist arabs.
_
A christian “war of mercy” which unnecessarily endangers the lives of one’s own soldiers was the downfall of Israel in Lebanon and prevents the IDF from being Jewish.

]]> By: Ray Bright http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm/comment-page-1#comment-90887 Ray Bright Thu, 08 May 2008 02:15:12 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm#comment-90887 Joseph, Some people abuse their dual citizenship, this however does not mean that dual citizenship is always wrong. There can genuinely be people who love and are loyal to both the countries. Loyalty is only impossible when the countries are at war with each other. Otherwise some dual citizens can make a great contributions creating connections and understanding. Israel and US could cooperate to eliminate abuses. It should not be harder then eliminating double taxing, which has already been done. Joseph,
Some people abuse their dual citizenship, this however does not mean that dual citizenship is always wrong. There can genuinely be people who love and are loyal to both the countries. Loyalty is only impossible when the countries are at war with each other. Otherwise some dual citizens can make a great contributions creating connections and understanding.
Israel and US could cooperate to eliminate abuses. It should not be harder then eliminating double taxing, which has already been done.

]]> By: Ray Bright http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm/comment-page-1#comment-90886 Ray Bright Thu, 08 May 2008 02:10:29 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm#comment-90886 Joseph,in 29 you said; "that you are an exceptional fellow : . Most people need religion". Spirituality just like love, cannot be organized. There is no outside authority on love, no holy book, no pope, no rabbi, no guru can teach you how to love. Yes, you can be touched and moved by someone's example, but there is no dogma. Any form of organized "spirituality" (or ""religion"") is a counterfeit. The same is the case with morality, if it is real, it comes from the inside. Only in each moment you can know what is the right action to be taken, or not taken. Every general dogma is bound to be wrong in some situation. Your very dignity as a human being is that nobody can tell you what's right. The highest among us, are those who dare to stand up against even a whole humanity and do what they in their conscience know is right. Even if they are universally condemned and ridiculed. = Those who have seen absurdity of religious beliefs, cannot go back to them. They can however go forward towards mature spirituality. Joseph,in 29 you said;
“that you are an exceptional fellow : . Most people need religion”.
Spirituality just like love, cannot be organized. There is no outside authority on love, no holy book, no pope, no rabbi, no guru can teach you how to love. Yes, you can be touched and moved by someone’s example, but there is no dogma.
Any form of organized “spirituality” (or “”religion”") is a counterfeit.
The same is the case with morality, if it is real, it comes from the inside. Only in each moment you can know what is the right action to be taken, or not taken. Every general dogma is bound to be wrong in some situation. Your very dignity as a human being is that nobody can tell you what’s right. The highest among us, are those who dare to stand up against even a whole humanity and do what they in their conscience know is right. Even if they are universally condemned and ridiculed.
=
Those who have seen absurdity of religious beliefs, cannot go back to them. They can however go forward towards mature spirituality.

]]> By: Albert http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm/comment-page-1#comment-90558 Albert Mon, 05 May 2008 13:58:25 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm#comment-90558 VL, interesting ideas. How workable do you think they are in practice? I doubt the Haredi will tear themselves away from Yeshivas in order to make up the bulk of the army, but I am admittedly not that well informed about them. VL, interesting ideas. How workable do you think they are in practice? I doubt the Haredi will tear themselves away from Yeshivas in order to make up the bulk of the army, but I am admittedly not that well informed about them.

]]> By: Joseph http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm/comment-page-1#comment-90397 Joseph Sun, 04 May 2008 18:08:50 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm#comment-90397 Ray (and Zvi, since Ray's thinking mirrors your own) -- I am not attempting to spin your arguments. When I disagree with you, I try to state the points of disagreement clearly. My point was and is that you are an exceptional fellow :) . Most people need religion, either for comfort or just to keep them in line. In Israel, the "non-religious", "modern", "democratic" types are the ones who from the beginning have insisted that Israel be a "secular" state, with equal rights for all religions and races. This leads to the situation we now see, wherein Arab Muslims are out-breeding the Jews (religious or not) and which will inevitably lead to the destruction of the state if there is not drastic change. It is specifically because of the "secular" nature of modern Israel that Kahane and his party were outlawed for teaching exactly what Obadiah proposes and with which you say you agree. YOU might agree with Obadiah, but you are in the distinct minority among secular Jews. Ray (and Zvi, since Ray’s thinking mirrors your own) — I am not attempting to spin your arguments. When I disagree with you, I try to state the points of disagreement clearly. My point was and is that you are an exceptional fellow :) . Most people need religion, either for comfort or just to keep them in line. In Israel, the “non-religious”, “modern”, “democratic” types are the ones who from the beginning have insisted that Israel be a “secular” state, with equal rights for all religions and races. This leads to the situation we now see, wherein Arab Muslims are out-breeding the Jews (religious or not) and which will inevitably lead to the destruction of the state if there is not drastic change. It is specifically because of the “secular” nature of modern Israel that Kahane and his party were outlawed for teaching exactly what Obadiah proposes and with which you say you agree. YOU might agree with Obadiah, but you are in the distinct minority among secular Jews.

]]> By: Zvi Menachem http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm/comment-page-1#comment-90267 Zvi Menachem Sat, 03 May 2008 16:28:40 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm#comment-90267 Ray Bright's intellect and cogent remarks make a lot of sense...mirror my own thinking, and match his last name. Ray Bright’s intellect and cogent remarks make a lot of sense…mirror my own thinking, and match his last name.

]]> By: Ray Bright http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm/comment-page-1#comment-90258 Ray Bright Sat, 03 May 2008 14:58:55 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm#comment-90258 Joseph, In your post #8, you commit a logical fallacy known as "straw-man". You are taking my argument, then putting your own spin on it, then destroying your spin, thinking that you have destroyed the argument. Concretely: I was saying that in order for the Jewish state to succeed, we must not drive the devision between religious and non-religious Jews. I was also saying that religious Jews should be given every freedom to practice their religion, but must not impose their moral rules and their rituals on others. You answered this by referring to some intolerant non-religious Jews who supposedly impose their atheism on others. This is a change of subject at best, and it is avoiding of real issue that I addressed. I said that Obadiah's most excellent analysis can only be transformed into action if it can unite the Jewish people rather than further divide them. I am the example of what I mean. Being 100% against all organized religious, and considering them the scourge of humanity, I am nevertheless agreeing with Obadiah's ideas because they are the most rational ideas I have yet read regarding the subject. His Machiavellian approach does not require any religion. It requires a clarity of goal. That clarity can arise from a simple recognition that Jews need a country, that no other place in the world is available, and that trying to establish a country in any other place, would have been even much more problematic. That Jews religious or not have deep historical connection to the Land of Israel, that is at least as deep as the English connection to London and Russian connection to Moscow. Finally that it is a much smaller injustice to move some Arabs to another Arab country, than to deprive Jews of their tiny country. Especially in the context of Arab controlling 600 more land than Jews. This is rational approach entirely free from religion. ============================= Much of the communist intolerance that you are decrying is caused by the equal and opposite intolerance exercised by the religionists. It it is however a shocking idiocy when those communists (as you call them) align themselves with Islam, which is by far the darkest of all currently practiced religions. In fact Joseph,

In your post #8, you commit a logical fallacy known as “straw-man”.
You are taking my argument, then putting your own spin on it, then destroying your spin, thinking that you have destroyed the argument.
Concretely: I was saying that in order for the Jewish state to succeed, we must not drive the devision between religious and non-religious Jews. I was also saying that religious Jews should be given every freedom to practice their religion, but must not impose their moral rules and their rituals on others.
You answered this by referring to some intolerant non-religious Jews who supposedly impose their atheism on others. This is a change of subject at best, and it is avoiding of real issue that I addressed. I said that Obadiah’s most excellent analysis can only be transformed into action if it can unite the Jewish people rather than further divide them.
I am the example of what I mean. Being 100% against all organized religious, and considering them the scourge of humanity, I am nevertheless agreeing with Obadiah’s ideas because they are the most rational ideas I have yet read regarding the subject. His Machiavellian approach does not require any religion. It requires a clarity of goal. That clarity can arise from a simple recognition that Jews need a country, that no other place in the world is available, and that trying to establish a country in any other place, would have been even much more problematic. That Jews religious or not have deep historical connection to the Land of Israel, that is at least as deep as the English connection to London and Russian connection to Moscow.
Finally that it is a much smaller injustice to move some Arabs to another Arab country, than to deprive Jews of their tiny country. Especially in the context of Arab controlling 600 more land than Jews.
This is rational approach entirely free from religion.
=============================
Much of the communist intolerance that you are decrying is caused by the equal and opposite intolerance exercised by the religionists.
It it is however a shocking idiocy when those communists (as you call them) align themselves with Islam, which is by far the darkest of all currently practiced religions. In fact

]]> By: Zvi Menachem http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm/comment-page-1#comment-90153 Zvi Menachem Fri, 02 May 2008 22:13:57 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm#comment-90153 I use to hear stories about the Orthodox from Brooklyn that traveled to Israel to vote in the elections. It's hard to think that either government looks kindly upon that aspect of dual citzenship. For the Orthodox it's a nice deal; earn by working here, get welfare in Israel, never fear: US has no draft and they can avoid military service in Israel. Should the going get too tough in Israel... well just whip out your American passport and leave. As my grandfather might have said, "On them you shouldn't depend." I use to hear stories about the Orthodox from Brooklyn that traveled to Israel to vote in the elections. It’s hard to think that either government looks kindly upon that aspect of dual citzenship. For the Orthodox it’s a nice deal; earn by working here, get welfare in Israel, never fear: US has no draft and they can avoid military service in Israel. Should the going get too tough in Israel… well just whip out your American passport and leave. As my grandfather might have said, “On them you shouldn’t depend.”

]]> By: Erick S http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm/comment-page-1#comment-90136 Erick S Fri, 02 May 2008 19:45:37 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/make-them-go-2.htm#comment-90136 Joseph: Loved the little song :) Especially for the cannibalism in it. I guess dual citizenship is good for individuals, not for states. I'd love to see what a French/German will do in WWIII :) Joseph: Loved the little song :) Especially for the cannibalism in it.
I guess dual citizenship is good for individuals, not for states.
I’d love to see what a French/German will do in WWIII :)

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