Israeli rulers are racists. They agree to the Palestinian state because they don’t want Arabs from the territories to inundate Israel, dismantling its Jewish identity. The inevitability of the Arab demographic threat to Jewish state, however, is a scapegoat.
For one, Israel is not a state of Jews even now. Arabs already constitute 34% among her youngsters, and there are 19% of Slavs with ephemeral connection to Judaism. Other non-Jews constitute 6% of Israeli population. Additionally, there are huge swarms of Arab residents of Israel who won’t move voluntarily to the pauperized Palestinian state when it is created, and Israel lacks the political will to revoke their residence permits and expel them. Even after a Palestinian state is created, Jews would hardly constitute a third of the young Israeli population. Arab international family reunions would drive the percentage of Jews still lower. This cannot be emphasized enough: Jews are already a minority in Israel.
Israel is not a Jewish state. If, incredibly, the government would come up with some scheme of creating a Jewish majority in Israel: say, by purging birth records of Israeli Slavs, Israel would remain an un-Jewish state. A state which doesn’t honor Sabbath or other basic tenets of Jewish religion, which abandons the Temple Mount to Muslims, cannot be meaningfully called Jewish.
The Allies at Potsdam Conference explicitly sanctioned “orderly population transfers” of ethnic Germans from Poland and Czechoslovakia after WWII for a total of about 12 million. The Treaty of Lausanne provided for Greeks and Turks expelling each other’s minorities a little earlier. The world did not care when Arab countries pushed out their Jews. The world accepted the Jews running out the Palestinians in 1948, and generally supports the Jews in refusing them back in. The world is sensible, and would tolerate expulsion of Arabs from Judea and Israel. The one thing the world hate, are calls for compassion, especially from TV screens. So whatever Israel does about the Arabs has to be done swiftly and irreversibly; no refugee camps.
The Arab problem is not really so big. Israeli government prevents the West Bank Arabs from emigrating. Instead, teach them useful employment, and they would move out. Young Palestinians, educated as doctors or engineers, will move to other Arab countries in search of a better pay. A simple measure of distributing free condoms would considerably reduce the Arab birth rate. Boycotting Arab labor in Israel would push able males to emigrate, and their families will later join them. At least, crack on the illegal labor market; forced to pay Israeli taxes, economically inefficient Arabs would emigrate. Reining in the theft-based Palestinian economy would cripple the Arab industries dependent on stealing electrical power, building materials, and other goods from Israel.
The number of Arabs in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza is grossly overstated. Mortality is officially almost non-existent in Palestinian communities: Arabs receive the UN and EU subsidies for their long-dead relatives. For the same reason, the reported infant mortality in refugee camps and Palestinian towns is unusually low, much lower than in the similar places in the Third World. There are many documented cases of fake births, when Palestinian women borrow babies from each other to register more children and receive more subsidies. Many Arabs are counted twice: as Israeli Arab residents and inhabitants of the West Bank, sometimes thrice when a part of their family lives in Gaza. Arabs who moved from one West Bank town to another are often counted in both places. Illegal emigration from the West Bank and Gaza to Arab countries is not accounted for. Realistic estimates put the Arab population of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza at 1.5 to 2.5 million. Close to 60% in Judea and Samaria is virtually empty, settled by mere 1% of the total Arab population. Basic enforcement of Israel’s laws on Arabs, such as making them pay taxes, serve in the army, and razing their massive illegal construction would make Israel unattractive to Arabs. Property buyouts at fair value would also induce some Arabs to leave Israel for cheaper neighboring countries. After Israel pushes some Palestinians out by economic policies, induces others to emigrate through compensations, the number left to be expelled won’t be huge.
Israel will be in existential danger regardless of the policies concerning her Arabs and the Palestinian state. A Jewish state among the sea of Muslims can never be safe, especially considering the Islamic prohibition of non-Muslim statehood in the Middle East. In any major conflict, Palestinians will be a fifth column because they are normal people and would like to have back the land they consider theirs. There is no reason for Jews to refrain from expelling the Palestinian Arabs.
Danny: What you say is absolutely correct. However, it is utopian to believe that it will ever happen. I believe Zechariah's prophecy as the end/beginning. Taking the position that what you say should happen will never happen, what is your forecast for the future?
Well, I too must say that this article describes a lot of good sensible measures, that will not be taken.
So, Obadiah's claim that Israel is doomed, is still correct.
Under the rubric of being careful of what you wish for, I am concerned with the period after the recommended measures are taken. How can a little sliver of a country, with a narrow waist between the West Bank and the sea, defend itself? Secularists will emigrate to other countries. As a theocracy (which I assume is foreseen) and a large group of Yeshiva bouchers, who are neither technocrats, scientists or fighters, what will happen to the country amidst millions of hostile neighbors?
And how can a secular or an atheist country Israel's size defend itself? That's why we need faith, nukes, and the Promised Land's borders.
A very clear article. The measures recommended, are both humane and practical. I would love for everybody to read and follow these simple, sensible ideas. However, I am also aware of the greatest hindrance for Obadiah's message to be heard: He unnecessarily weakens his point by only appealing to the religious Jews.
=====================================
Israel was started by non-religious Jews: They worked, hard and fought courageously. (I know this from first hand relations, as many of my near relatives were part of this). Many of them had socialist/humanistic ideals and dreams. They are perfectly capable of facing reality and realizing that in spite of their best wishes for harmonious relations with Arabs, such dream is unachievable. They could easily agree with almost everything that Obadiah is proposing, except for the imposition of religion.
======================================
I am asking this question out of desperation: WHY must religious believers impose their values on others? Is it not enough that they are given every freedom to observe their religious beliefs? Nobody prevents them from being Kosher, from holding Sabbath, from praying, circumcising their boys etc.
The the religious believers pressure to impose their values on EVERYBODY results in many people, including myself, being almost as afraid of them as of fanatical Muslims and Christians.
I ask again: Is it not enough to have every freedom to practice one's religion? Is it not enough to have special holy places that are protected and reserved for such purpose?
I think it is a huge lie to say that only religious Jews are real Jews. This lie will only destroy Jews, as ALL organized religions are eventually going to give way to Enlightened Reason!
For example I think that circumcision is barbaric. Why should the religious Jews care about another man's private parts?????
And eating dairy, pigs and cow-meat is all equally disgusting and unscientific, and only causes the population to have heart attacks and obesity. Still, it is part of individual freedom!
****For such stupid things, we are going to jeopardize our country??****
"So whatever Israel does about the Arabs has to be done swiftly and irreversibly; no refugee camps."
Didn't Joseph Goebbels write stuff like this?
And so did Machiavelli
Obadiah — Your discription of the illegal methods by which "Palestinians" increase their counted numbers and subsidies (welfare) and votes is EXACTLY what the Democrats do in the US, and I do not doubt that they learned these methods from liberal, atheist Jews from America. It is simply irreversable, short of revolution. When half, or more, of one's country consciously subverts the law, there can be only one solution.
===
Ray — You asked in a previous post, where the Israeli leaders came up with the madness of using the enemies' terminology: The same place as the note above — revolutionary communist Jews from the US, the same people that call the Mexican Army of the Reconquista "undocumented workers".
===
Your socialist relatives who were among the original Zionist settlers in Israel have my deepest admiration and respect. Just a couple of weeks ago, I read the book "Golda", which was a biography of Ms. Meir up to 1969/70. It was truly moving. As you know, I am a recovering Letist, myself. It is easy to see how at the very beginning of the nation, a communal, if not out-right communist approach was, if not absolutely necessary, certainly very beneficial. Times do change, however. And the Atheist/Communist activist Jews in America today do not believe in religious toleration, as I think you do. The ACLU (largely atheist Jewish lawyers) and their ilk are determined to tear Crosses and Stars of David off of every cemetary and war memorial in the country, while requiring airports and colleges to have foot-washing facilities for Muslims prayer rituals! They do not care about religious freedom — they care about communist revolution. The same in Israel. These people are communists first, last, and always. To whatever level they acknowledge their Jewishness, it is just to loath it. I know that you are not like that, but the "free-thinkers" you would like to see running things are. THAT is why religion, and in the case of Israel, Judaism, is absolutely necessary for the continuation of a State.
===
The Temple MUST be rebuilt.
UNOINO — The Nazis were most often correct as to what is effective in politics, even if they were almost always evil in their goals. Be glad that Adolph invaded the Soviet Union (also a very evil bunch), or we really would be stuck with a thousand year reich.
Joseph #8
"illegal methods by which "Palestinians" increase their counted numbers and subsidies (welfare) and votes is EXACTLY what the Democrats do in the US,"
And.
"When half, or more, of one's country consciously subverts the law, there can be only one solution."
Really Joseph? And what might that solution be?
There is the element of unequal populations. Jews were thrown out of almost all Arab lands in the last 60 or so years, yet the world (and unfortunately a lot of knee-jerk, left-wing, liberal Jews) ignore that and agonize over a few hundred Palestinians who left, or were forced to leave Israel in 1947.
One has only to look at a map to see how millions of acres of Arab lands contrasts with the sliver of land that is now Israel, yet the exquisite public relations of the Arabs has convinced the rest of world that the only solution to the problem is for Israel to capitulate and become Arab… anything less would be a travesty in their mind.
The basis of all the animosities with the Muslim world and also the West is abject anti-Semitism. They just don’t like Jews. It has in its roots religion. Who can argue against the dictates of one’s God?
The only viable and lasting solution is a separation of people who can not live with each other.
As I write, the Arab countries are meeting in Egypt with Hamas and are asking Israel for a truce… not peace, but a truce. The lesson of the hudna comes from Mohamed, who used a truce to rearm and fight again. Israel is correct (so far) in telling the West that Gaza can have what they want by just stopping the rockets. If the rockets stop, so will the retaliation… and that is called a truce.
Joseph,
Forgive me for disagreeing with you, but in my opinion, Nazis were far from rational.
If their goal was to conquer Europe and defeat Soviet Union, a lot of what they did was irrational:
It was stupidly irrational of them to focus on exterminating Jews. Germany lost some of their greatest scientist (who otherwise were devoted German patriots!). The first scientist to split the atom was a Jewish woman, Lisa Meitner, she had to escape Germany, as did thousands of others great scientist who could have turn the war around for Germany.
Their extermination of Jews in occupied Europe did not bring any benefit to them either.
There was a huge opposition to Soviet Rule in big parts of Soviet Union. However because of the NAZI Germany's idiotic racist ideology even anti-Soviets felt that Stalin was a lesser evil than Hitler. Even in Ukraine, only a (sizable) minority supported Hitler. It could easily have been a majority, should Hitler really offer them independence. Instead he let them know that they were "lower than Germans".
UNOINO — I am a reformist by nature, but sadly, revolution is sometimes the only answer. I am afraid that is where the US and Israel will soon find themselves.
===
Machiavelli, so often misunderstood, advised young hot-heads to really consider deeply how bad their situation is before embarking upon the overthrow of the status quo, because history shows that all too often the "cure is worse than the disease". However, when the very existence of the State is in jeopardy, hot-headed youth and cool-thinking veterans alike are left with no option except the establishment of a new order. In the United States, that would ideally be a return to Constitutional law, and that, indeed, will require a revolution, as the present order is a dictatorship of judges pandering to the masses on the public dole (many of whom are not even citizens). Israel's situation is very similar, but even more sad, since she does not have a long history of constitutional government.
Ray — We are not in disagreement (on this, anyway). That is truly one of the great questions of modern history: "Was Hitler insane, or just evil, or both?" Of course, he was evil. And I think you understand that I don't say that just because this is a Jewish site. But he COULD have accomplished most of his stated goals if he had not invaded Russia. And he had the (comparatively) recent example of Napoleon to demonstrate the folly of such an act. Yet he did it anyway. So, was he insane? Damn, what a question. I, personally, think he was the worst of both worlds — evil and insane, and on top of that, a worshipper of "evil" itself as a deity. I believe that he really hated the Germans as well as everyone else. He worshipped death. The Vikings of old considered death in batttle as the highest good a man could achieve, but not slaughter just for the sake of slaughter. Adolph was really just completely screwed in the mind and the soul. He did not WANT to win, in my not so humble opinion. But, as for political organization, the Nazis were pretty damned good. Ho hum (as Kurt Vonnegut would say).
Ray, Nazis make a lot of sense. Much more than pseudo-liberals.
When a human hates someone, it does not care at all if that someone has a big brain, can do science, or can dance really nice. In fact, all of these may contribute to the hate.
When a human hates a group, it does not consider how to live with that group in a way that will benefit them both in a mathematical way. Not if it can get rid of them instead.
The Nazis wanted to live in a world with no Jews. They did not care why they hated Jews, or analyzed why the Jew is evil. They just knew that it is, and that getting rid of the Jew is a good thing.
They also knew that they were doing the other European countries a favor by exterminating those Jews, since no other country really wanted them.
You can be pretty sure that other countries were pretty glad to see the Germans dealing with 'those pesky Jews' the right way. Some of them even after being conquered.
And so, it is all perfectly rational, as long as you understand that human logic is irrational
Joseph: Might want to add that many people who served under Hitler, or in the Wehrmacht, were aware of their leader's insanity, and knew that it is wiser to keep their mouth shut.
When they were winning, they viewed him as invincible, but that euphoria didn't last.
He gave them a direction, but they had the freedom of executing his orders in a more logical, capable way. We should be thankful that he meddled enough in the affairs of the military to actually sabotage the German war effort.
Unlike Stalin, who realized he is better at sending everyone around him to die in a Gulag, than at commanding the red army.
"Secularists will emigrate to other countries. As a theocracy (which I assume is foreseen) and a large group of Yeshiva bouchers, who are neither technocrats, scientists or fighters, what will happen to the country amidst millions of hostile neighbors?"
_
Tzvi, Making a 'theocracy' would be a mistake. One needs to construct a Torah republic with a balance of powers to represent the Jewish view but to also counteract the rampant corruption. Think of some of the rabbis right now and what they are doing for a buck. Making them the sole vehicle of state government is going to eliminate the corruption of "torah parties?" Not a chance.
_
I'm not a political scientist, nor an expert in Ancient Israel's government structure, but the opportunity to create a Torah-based state is a completely unprecendented one beyond the 2nd destruction 2000 years ago. The Talmud and code of Jewish law is designed to instruct individuals as to how to obey Jewish law properly in addition to an entire system compiled for Jews to deal with the galut facing them after the destruction. There are no provisions or limitations as to how one would construct a new Torah-based STATE or Government, as this is not within the scope of Talmudic law per se or Shulchan Aruch which is mainly focusing on the individual and religious conduct. I think we are unlimited in our creativity and ingenuity to consult with today's greatest rabbis and most knowledgable and faithful Jews in constructing such a Torah-based system that can be 100% in line with orthodox Jewish principles, yet not quite a "theocracy" or the Islamic concept bent into Jewish form.
_
And this can be easily explained to the more 'haredi' elements of our nation. Since they will readily agree that Moschiach has not yet come, it is inappropriate to restore the FULL sanhedrin of the past to their full duties and powers. In the meantime, we will construct a model 'nascent sanhedrin' (much in the mold of the one formed recently but with universal recognition and actually operating with political/judicial power - and participation of all major gedolim), based on biblical understanding of this body, but not having the authority to put someone to death for needlessly/maliciously breaking Shabbat, for instance. And this sanhedrin will balance other facets of the political spectrum such as president, or district based representation and legislators, until that time comes when Moschiach is here and we can establish a true religious monarchy. Society will have to rid itself of galut and strengthen its faith before that time can come. Torah-based republic will get us there, while current Israeli govt will take us in the opposite direction toward destruction and staunch secularism, defeatism, appeasement, and erosion of basic Jewish values. I think it's an easy choice.
_
It will be difficult to mandate other education for haredim, but they will be the bulk of the armed forces with a real Jewish army that slaughers the Arab enemies without one hand tied behind the back and a blindfold as they do currently. Top haredi soldiers and army officers could be encouraged to learn engineering and devote their non-Torah-learning time/parnassa to developing advanced weaponry for the sake of milchemet mitzvah and pikuach nefesh for am Yisrael. Haredim have also increasingly entered the workforce and this trend would continue. There could be mandatory cut-offs or limits to govt funding for haredi yeshivot, or a choice for inclusion within a public education system, also to encourage some secular studies for purposes of parnassa, less govt welfare, and more encouragement of workforce in general. Then again, haredim could just stick to their own yeshivot education with equal funding for that and the public school education, which will include Torah studies and tanach and all basic Torah learning techniques and traditions in addition to secular subjects. This is not as problematic as in US society because there is not a threat of private yeshivah education destroying the public school system - different sectors of the population will prefer one or the other based on ideology, political allegiance and religious differences. With strong enough Torah in public school system, it could thrive.
_
That said, the 'religious zionists' and national camp would make up the scientific studies and other professions perhaps lacking in the haredi sector while the more 'traditional' folk (read, not ultraorthodox, but still keeping Jewish tradition and not self-hating leftist Jew-haters, but less fervent in observance) would serve less in the army and take these occupations more, although not inspecting lettuce as well as our more religious brethren. Society will have a balance. But a JEWISH balance, a Jewish voice, Jewish values and principles, and Jewish vengeance if necessary to discourage our enemies' constant attacks.
_
I think if you try to force a halachic state onto the population it will be disastrous for our nation because the people aren't ready for that, and I don't think the Torah necessarily mandates it in this situation either. In addition, there is a well-known saying in the Oral tradition that one cannot impose a halachic ruling that the Jewish population will not accept and generally abide by. We must take advantage of the flexibility afforded to us by our sages of blessed memory and be creative about where lead this state. But first thing is first, oust the traitors and oust the Arab fifth column, and uproot the entire current evil political system.
A modern 21st. century government based entirely on Torah would receive the same just criticism that is currently being aimed at fundamental Islam. Today’s western democracies and the body of laws are the evolutionary results of trial and error beginning with Mosaic Law. What we have today is based upon the West’s Judaic-Christian heritage. In my opinion it would be wrong to live in the 21st. century with a system from the 15th century (maybe older).
On the other hand, western democracy is like the classical art: the Renaissance Europeans were fascinated with ancient political ways just as they were fond of the ancient art.
Besides, no country today practices democracy, but republicanism at most, and even that very much subverted by corporate fascism, media demagoguery, and judicial activism.
All you're trying to do is be inflammatory. I wonder why all those places have rejected you, refused to list you (Amazon, GoDaddy, Jewishblogging.com)… You're just inflammatory for attention.
Seems to me like someone else is hungry for attention.
Aren't you, little attention piggy? Who's a nice piggy? A boo boo boo.
VL — Very interesting and well articulated comments.
http://www.israelibyday.com — Truth is very often "inflammatory".
===
What is an "israeli by day"? Is that like a "day tripper"? You know what John Lennon said that meant, right? A wannabe hippie that was afraid to drop acid after dark. Are you afraid to take the "trip" of the truth?
===
Erick — Yeah, "Every where are little piggies, living piggy lives. You will see them out to dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their bacon."
Damn, I messed up. I did not mean to link to little piggy's site. Can you undo that for me, Danny?
===
israelibyday — If you took Israeli citizenship, you are no longer an American, no matter what Condileeza Rice says. That is one of the things that the coming revolution will fix. Dual citizenship is illegitimate in the United States, and it has only recently been "allowed" by the traitors in the State Department and on the Supreme Court. This WILL be changed in the not too distant future. Decide with whom you have allegiance. At the moment, you are not an American or an Israeli.
Joseph: Loved the little song
Especially for the cannibalism in it.
I guess dual citizenship is good for individuals, not for states.
I'd love to see what a French/German will do in WWIII
I use to hear stories about the Orthodox from Brooklyn that traveled to Israel to vote in the elections. It's hard to think that either government looks kindly upon that aspect of dual citzenship. For the Orthodox it's a nice deal; earn by working here, get welfare in Israel, never fear: US has no draft and they can avoid military service in Israel. Should the going get too tough in Israel… well just whip out your American passport and leave. As my grandfather might have said, "On them you shouldn't depend."
Joseph,
In your post #8, you commit a logical fallacy known as "straw-man".
You are taking my argument, then putting your own spin on it, then destroying your spin, thinking that you have destroyed the argument.
Concretely: I was saying that in order for the Jewish state to succeed, we must not drive the devision between religious and non-religious Jews. I was also saying that religious Jews should be given every freedom to practice their religion, but must not impose their moral rules and their rituals on others.
You answered this by referring to some intolerant non-religious Jews who supposedly impose their atheism on others. This is a change of subject at best, and it is avoiding of real issue that I addressed. I said that Obadiah's most excellent analysis can only be transformed into action if it can unite the Jewish people rather than further divide them.
I am the example of what I mean. Being 100% against all organized religious, and considering them the scourge of humanity, I am nevertheless agreeing with Obadiah's ideas because they are the most rational ideas I have yet read regarding the subject. His Machiavellian approach does not require any religion. It requires a clarity of goal. That clarity can arise from a simple recognition that Jews need a country, that no other place in the world is available, and that trying to establish a country in any other place, would have been even much more problematic. That Jews religious or not have deep historical connection to the Land of Israel, that is at least as deep as the English connection to London and Russian connection to Moscow.
Finally that it is a much smaller injustice to move some Arabs to another Arab country, than to deprive Jews of their tiny country. Especially in the context of Arab controlling 600 more land than Jews.
This is rational approach entirely free from religion.
=============================
Much of the communist intolerance that you are decrying is caused by the equal and opposite intolerance exercised by the religionists.
It it is however a shocking idiocy when those communists (as you call them) align themselves with Islam, which is by far the darkest of all currently practiced religions. In fact
Ray Bright's intellect and cogent remarks make a lot of sense…mirror my own thinking, and match his last name.
Ray (and Zvi, since Ray's thinking mirrors your own) — I am not attempting to spin your arguments. When I disagree with you, I try to state the points of disagreement clearly. My point was and is that you are an exceptional fellow
. Most people need religion, either for comfort or just to keep them in line. In Israel, the "non-religious", "modern", "democratic" types are the ones who from the beginning have insisted that Israel be a "secular" state, with equal rights for all religions and races. This leads to the situation we now see, wherein Arab Muslims are out-breeding the Jews (religious or not) and which will inevitably lead to the destruction of the state if there is not drastic change. It is specifically because of the "secular" nature of modern Israel that Kahane and his party were outlawed for teaching exactly what Obadiah proposes and with which you say you agree. YOU might agree with Obadiah, but you are in the distinct minority among secular Jews.
VL, interesting ideas. How workable do you think they are in practice? I doubt the Haredi will tear themselves away from Yeshivas in order to make up the bulk of the army, but I am admittedly not that well informed about them.
Joseph,in 29 you said;
"that you are an exceptional fellow : . Most people need religion".
Spirituality just like love, cannot be organized. There is no outside authority on love, no holy book, no pope, no rabbi, no guru can teach you how to love. Yes, you can be touched and moved by someone's example, but there is no dogma.
Any form of organized "spirituality" (or ""religion"") is a counterfeit.
The same is the case with morality, if it is real, it comes from the inside. Only in each moment you can know what is the right action to be taken, or not taken. Every general dogma is bound to be wrong in some situation. Your very dignity as a human being is that nobody can tell you what's right. The highest among us, are those who dare to stand up against even a whole humanity and do what they in their conscience know is right. Even if they are universally condemned and ridiculed.
=
Those who have seen absurdity of religious beliefs, cannot go back to them. They can however go forward towards mature spirituality.
Joseph,
Some people abuse their dual citizenship, this however does not mean that dual citizenship is always wrong. There can genuinely be people who love and are loyal to both the countries. Loyalty is only impossible when the countries are at war with each other. Otherwise some dual citizens can make a great contributions creating connections and understanding.
Israel and US could cooperate to eliminate abuses. It should not be harder then eliminating double taxing, which has already been done.
Albert, If it was a Jewish army rather than a christian one like currently, more haredim would serve. Just as they are entering the work force in greater numbers, so too they will enter other fields and especially the military if it was actually a Jewish army. If the haredi was guaranteed separation of sexes and availability of all mitzvot to be kept while serving, they would serve in higher numbers, but only in a Jewish army that does not tie soldier's arms behind backs in fear of hurting the enemy and a Jewish army which would send in cover fire and air support irregardless of enemy "civilian" terrorist arabs.
_
A christian "war of mercy" which unnecessarily endangers the lives of one's own soldiers was the downfall of Israel in Lebanon and prevents the IDF from being Jewish.