We killed 57 civilians in the Lebanese village Kfar Kana today. That’s about a two-day toll in Iraq and next to nothing in Sudan, Algeria, Afghanistan, or other war-torn Muslim countries. The Iran-Iraqi war took millions of lives, and scores of other intra-Arab wars killed more than 100,000 civilians each. The Allies had no reservations about bombing German and Japanese cities. The Lebanese cheered Hezbollah attacks on Jewish population centers. Palestinian suicide bombers specifically target Israeli civilians. So why should Israel behave any differently? Beside, the Israeli army did every thing possible to spare civilians. They were given hours to leave the villages that hosted Hezbollah fighters. In effect, Israel agreed to let the guerillas escape along with the villagers to avoid killing civilians.
The villagers stupidly stayed put and hid not in a bomb shelter, as the media has it, but in a basement. No reasonable person would hide in the basement of a house targeted for aerial attack. Israel made no mistake; the locals did.
Whether or not that Hezbollah provoked Israel to bomb a village does not matter. Israel acted within the normal limits of war. It need not offer pitiful excuses and ask for forgiveness. Wars are about killing. The moral cripples from Peace Now at Israel’s helm embarrass the country, demoralize the army, and lose the war.
TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT.I EXPECT THAT WHEN THIS IS ALL OVER THAT THERE WILL BE TWO WAR CRIMES TRIALS…HEZBOLLAH AND ISRAEL.
War crimes tribunals are established by victors, and have been shown to be a cynical and corrupt sop to the masses. The US nuked hundreds of thousands of Japanese, mainly civilians. Elderly folk, women, babies. Where was the war crimes tribunal? History is written by winners. But do not forget, the US was attacked by Japan. They must bear the responsibility, not the US, which acted in it's own defence and probably saved a million or so lives in using the A-bomb.Incidentally, did the world tell the US they had three weeks to solve the hostilities following Pearl Harbour?Dresden would have made ample evidence for the horrors of bombing cities, to show people who cannot face the truth - yes, war is an obscenity. But when faced with war, it's fight and win, or surrender. Period. And who is perpetrating this anti-Israeli war? There are the instigators, on all our screens, waving their flags en masse, but not a peep from the lefty loonies, the UN, or those myopic Europeans who have all committed ghastly atrocities in their time. The world is not the place that they teach you it is at school. The price of freedom really is eternal vigilance, or others will destroy you, simply because they can.
I wouldn't know where to hide in case of a bombing. I wonder whether there'd be enough capacity to hide all civilians. In fact, I bet that bombing proof hide-outs are reserved for militaries.
Druidragon makes a typical mistake, assuming that the Israeli gov't has a duty to protect the lives of Lebanese citizens. It doesn't. It has a duty to protect the lives of Israeli citizens. If it takes the destruction of the entire so-called nation of Lebanon to do so, so be it. Hopefully it won't. It is the Lebanese gov't and people's duty to protect themselves. The smartest way to do that would be to expel Hezbollah forthwith. If they continue to allow H to attack Israel from civilian areas and to support H in any way, they may expect further civilian casualties. Since H is our sworn enemy, we should be assisting Israel in any way we reasonably can.If Druidragon were capable and willing to engage in reasonable conversation I might ask him what exactly he thinks is 'wrong' about Israel's actions? Upon what moral principle does he base his judgement, and why should anyone else agree with him about that principle?
It is surely right to take into account the killings of civilians elsewhere, though some examples given were at a time when there was not so much public outcry against such acts, though it is surely wrong to say: 1. that "we" killed 57 civilians - as if that is something "we" should be proud of; and 2. we learn from the past and don't emulate - simply because it was done before doesn't make it acceptable. However, it does seem to be the case that Israel is condemned publicly to a much more severe extent than is, say, Sadam Hussain for murdering many thousands of Iraqis, or China for their inhumanity to their own people as well as the Nepalese, or the numerous attrocities committed in certain African countries, and so on. I wonder why this is the case? Also, why would the writer say, "So what?" Isn't that somewhat callous and cruel? I certainly don't want to see anyone die. Biblical teaching would inform us not to gloat over such deaths. To do so is very much against the will of God. Perhaps our writer needs to readdress his own attitudes to the conflict.
"YOU CAN RUN BUT YOU CAN NOT HIDE".Aquote from the SUPPLIER the "BUNKER BUSTER" BOYS and the Condom too.
Doc and everyone else who happens to read this: Every human has the "duty" to help protect the life of every other human to the best of their ability. Call me idealistic if you must, I really don't mind at all. You know what, you can even call me simplistic and naive if you want to. We need a return to innocence. When is humanity going to wake up and realize that we are caught in a seemingly perpetual cycle of violence. I say seemingly because we seem to be blind to the fact that we can break this cycle of destruction. It can be broken.Yes, I hear the response already: man is a tribal being, a violent life form, all of life is violent, even animals fight, it's natural, it's human nature, there's no way to get around it, deal with it, grow up and welcome to reality. I understand this "reality" by the way, and it makes me sick. I'm of the mind that your reality is what you make it. Our collective reality is what we collectively make it. Do you really have such little respect for and faith in humanity, and thus yourselves, that you honestly don't believe that peace - I'm talking worldwide peace - is a possibility? Do you really think we don't have it in us to figure out how to resolve our differences, which are relatively minor in the grand scale of life itself, without killing, maiming, raping and traumatizing each other into submission? But how can we break this cycle? Well for starters, stop rationalizing war and all of its evils with comments such as: "… - yes, war is an obscenity. But when faced with war, it's fight and win, or surrender. Period." and "The price of freedom really is eternal vigilance, or others will destroy you, simply because they can." and "If it takes the destruction of the entire so-called nation of Lebanon to do so, so be it. Hopefully it won't." and "YOU CAN RUN BUT YOU CAN NOT HIDE". A people with a mindset such as this is destined to tumble in a fate of eternal violence. Action follows thought.What IS wrong with Israel's actions? The same thing that is wrong with every other violent action - it's violent. "Two wrongs don't make a right" is just a simple way of saying violence is a cycle that won't be broken by perpetuating it. I believe that this is an accurate assertion. I base my judgment of violence as being "wrong" upon the moral principle I find within myself. Be it my mind, my heart or my soul, myself is who I trust to speak truth. If you allow yourself to subdue the anger and self-righteousness and see beyond the conditioned feeling of "patriotism" and acceptance of war as a fact of life, I think you might find that your own moral principle, and truth, is amazingly similar to mine. Let there be peace on earth. And let it begin with me.
SRS:I'm sorry, but I don't find your moral posturing all that impressive. If you stand idly by and allow your family to be shot in the heads, or burned alive then you are not a moral man. You are a weak fool. Or a coward. Take your pick. Sitting around writing love letters to your snow white soul is fine. I suppose it makes you feel superior to all the other people in the world who don't have the luxury of a massive army between them and the evils of the world. Good men who do nothing are collaborators with evil. Good men who do nothing are not good men. Good men become good men by opposing evil, not standing around waiting for someone else to do it. People are judged on their actions, not on their intentions. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions– enjoy the trip.
israel is the best and lets forget the rest:)
Trying to hold the moral ground is a Jewish exode inherited trait . It is not as positive as Jews would like it to appear. It probably started after the last king was taken into exile,and Jews were left to fend for themselves with only priest to lead them .There was the short interlude of the Hashmonean rebelion and later the ones against Rome, when killing your enemy by all means possible was still practiced.For the next two thousand years, Jews were again led by the local old weak priests who always advocated calm and obediance against violence,pogroms and mayhem against Jews wich culminated with the Hollocaust. With Rabbis as leaders of the flock,gentiles were assured that no harm will come to those who attack Jews.Rabbis went out of their ways to present this submissiveness as morally higher than the murderer's. We all know that until the turn of this century, practically all jews were part of this system.Israel was lucky to owe its modern begining to Russian young Jews,who didn't subscribe to this Martyr dogma. When they were hit ,they gave back tenfold,not hesitating to take out whole Arab villages,when Arab menfolk from there went on a murder rampage. That was deterence pure and simple. That was the new Jew,the Israeli.Unfortunately, the new Jew/Israeli didn't last long.That glorious generation became old,their children became lawyers,doctors,dealmachrs businessmen fat and greedy. They left the villages for the big life and feel a lot more at ease in L.A. and N.Y than in Degania.Voids in the public and military sectors were soon filled with people loyal to one party or another irrelevant of capacity. An old and sick Sharon became more interested in political survival at 80 than what Iran or Syria or Hezzbolah or any other group was doing.The Arabs are watching from the sidelines as a small ,brigade size terrorist group is raining mayhem on the country for 3 weeks now. It is tempting.The leadership of Israel (as opposed to an Israeli leadership which no longer exists) is reacting like the the exode Rabbis of the last 2000 years.That is the biggest calamity to befall Israel, there don't seem to be asingle real Israeli left in the Knesset.Many Israelis have left the Army out of frustration and humiliation at beingsubordunated to the likes of Mofaz,Barak ect…and at having to dance to the tunes of an Omri,an old senile Sharon, an opportunist Olmert,a Perez?I cry for them,I share their humiliation. But like the prophets of old, all I have been doing like most of you, was,send warning about what was coming, to no avail.Israel still has time to turn things around. Incompetent MKs should be kicked out fast. Proper leadership installed by hook if necessary.Competent military geniuses brought back,and yesmen ousted.Israel is lucky it was not hit directly by Iran-Syria, while Bush is still in the white house; but next time he is not going to there.So, Israel,use your time wisely and wake up from your apathyHazak veematz.
SRS:I am an Iranian and I just wish to say that I started reading the article and the posted comments and felt that I needed to add my voice to this until I came to your piece and felt that you so eloquently said all I wanted to say!So I just want to thank you for your calm voice in this madness!"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one…."
In response to SRS and others who shared their thoughts on such a weighty and complex problem: Me thinks the callousness of the "so what" in regards to the deaths of everyday citizens–collateral damage to the State or military, triggered (pardon the pun) a variety of perspectives to which I would like to add.SRS's notion that "our collective reality is what we make it" is part of a belief system that, unlike most religious propositions, is testable. It's an hypothesis that would require quite the miracle to achieve–but it could be proven. If enough people believed in the things that SRS advocated for a sustained period of time and the violence slowed or finally stopped then there might be something to his proposition. Perhaps when the madmen have blown most of us up and there's only a few of us left, we'll be able to test your idea. As is, too many are "collectively" believing in "Bible prophecy"; Koranic teaching; end times scenarios; and all manner of irrational nonsense. Yes SRS it would be nice if more people had faith in modern humanity rather than the primitive (and at times deranged) rantings generated by the humanity of yore, but as much as I adore your idealism, NK's and Idealism in general, many a human animal is hypnotized by its own religious delusions, and until the majority wakes up… here we sit, hoping not to become a smithereen. The evolution of reason has many obstacles…Keep on JuMpInG!!JCR.
I am sorry. to everyone involved in this conflict who thinks it is either wrong or right. both sides, people of both opinions, all opinions, beliefs, EVERYTHING, please accept my comfort. I am sleepless thinking about this, and i know yu all must be too. I have no solutions or answers or gung-ho arguments for right or wrong, i just… love you. i love the world. i love humans. May all of your own Gods be with you.
The Thinker: No need to apologize. Obviously, everyone is (or should be) entitled to their own ideas. In the interest of not becoming a blatant hypocrite, I am not going to insult your own "moral posturing" as you did mine. However, I would like to answer to some of the points you brought up. I do not think myself superior to anybody, even you. Clearly you missed the essence of my entire post, or perhaps I failed to commuicate it effectively. I do feel lucky to be alive and well, but feeling lucky is not the same as feeling superior. If I felt superior, I wouldn't feel lucky because I would be of the mind that I was solely entitled to said safety. I believe that everyone is entitled to feel safe. I love your love letter/snow white soul comment!! You made me laugh! You should try writing a love letter to yourself, I can help you with the wording if you'd like!!I agree with the good old "good men" philosophy. I just disagree with your interpretation of what evil is. I suppose you would classify me as a part of the "Axis of Evil"! If my philosophy and good intentions are going to land me in hell, well then maybe that's where I want to be. It can't be all that bad if it's full of peaceful minded people. NK: I'm so glad you liked what I had to say. Thank you for the kind compliment. Please remember that not all Americans are blood thirsty and power hungry. A lot of people are, but I think most people just want to live in peace. JCR: Thank you for your insight. I adore your realism!
Yes, Israel does have a responsibility to look out for the security of lebanese civilains regarding Israel's acts of violence. That's the basis of just war theory, the Geneva Conventions and international law.No, it's not "anything goes" when it comes to war, in my mind and that of almost everony I've ever knoww about. Just war theory addresses means used in war, and the ends do not justify the means according to most schools of moral philosophy. If you believe otherwise, so be it; you're not alone. But then you don't have a leg to stand on in criticizing terrorism as distinct from attacks on combatants. If "anything goes in war," according to you, there's no moral distinction between mowing down a bunch of kindergartners or a bunch of soldiers. To you there is no such thing as a distinction identifying such a thing as "terroism"–it's all "anything goes." Clearly the Palestinains have just ends in part–ending the occupation. If you're one of those nutcases that thinks Jews truly are "the chosen people" and have been given Eretz Israel by God, say hi to the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus for me. Since Palestinains have some legitimate ends in mind, and Israel has refused to end the occupation as it must do according to int'l law, morality, decency, and humane-ness, then Hamas's terrorism is as justfied as the IDF's bombing of Lebanese civilians–which you defend. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. There's a reason that moral standards need to be consistent, and your approval of Hamas' terrorism, under your code of morality in war, demonstrates why.Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden and Tokyo (firebombings) were terrorist acts, the single biggest terrorist acts in history. Why Americans and those in the West deny this baffles me. Actually it doesn't baffle me, but how they can ignore that reality as an intellectual matter is disturbing to me. The West generally says the ends don't justify the means, so the saved lives of American G.I.'s are not justification for the A-bombs. Needless to say the est. of 1 million is absolute speculation without precednt or attention paid to the numerouss other politcal, diplomatic,a nd military variables at issue. Targeting civilians with violence for political purposes is terrorism. The US is a hypocrite, as is Israel.If Hezbollah dropped leaflets in No. Israel warning civilians to flee, would their rocket attacks and concomitant casualites be justifed? Bet you don't think so. I certainly don't.