Comments on: Jewish religious nationalism

By: Ray Bright

Ray Bright — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 19:01:25 +0000

To answer your question about mixing genes: Yes, there is every scientific evidence that in more cases than not, mixing different human genomes produces in every respect superior genetics.
In a healthy culture the stronger and healthier individuals would under the normal circumstances have more progenies.
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Eventually this process will be replaced with direct genetic intervention, where people will chose the best available genes to make their children strong, healthy, long living, with all other available genetic advantages.
It is like with computers, you use chips from Korea, Taiwan, Germany, or in Silicone Valley.
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Still, under such circumstances, human identity is not determined by the genes. I is the “consciousness” or the “soul” (“soul” is a rough metaphor, but good enough for this conversation) choses a particular particular mother.
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So, I am happy that in Israel, the Jewish nation is enriched with the Ethiopian, genes. I believe that we will end up stronger and healthier, if the positive results be supported, while the sick, weak and stupid will fade out. The most important thing is that these people are indeed absorbed into the Jewish nation in sense of their collective identity. I would even welcome ex-Nazis into Jewish nation, if they were to FULLY identify themselves as Jews.

By: Ray Bright

Ray Bright — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 18:25:46 +0000

It is interesting what you are saying, that your hatred of Jews and other races goes back to early childhood. Perhaps it is caused by some unconscious early childhood imprints, or perhaps there is something which is not recognized by our culture. Something like “past lives”. I do think that there is SOMETHING LIKE that, not exactly the migration of a soul, but “past lives” is probably a good crude model. In any case, let’s suppose that in your past life you indeed were a NAZI. And perhaps this could then mean that you are born with intense hatred of Jews and other “lower races”.
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This in no way proves that such ideology is correct. In fact it is not even internally consistent. However I do suspect that such intense seeming “past-live” (or “unexplainable”) influences exist. I have observed this with people who become HareKrishna. They feel complete certainty, that this is the “true religion”, they feel right at home with all of it’s rituals.
Now, Hare Krishna is TOTALLY IDIOTIC, even among religions it is STUPID. It’s founder was totally stupid. But the followers of Hare Krishna, or “Guru Maharaji”, or other such frauds, don’t think logically. Even if some of them are actually intelligent, their strong sense of resonance overwrites their intelligence with intense emotion of belonging. The best explanation I can come up with is that they were Hindus in many of “their previous lives”. (There is a more accurate language than this, but it would be long winded, so I am using “past lives” as a good metaphor).
So likewise, perhaps you “were a Nazi” in your past life. Perhaps “the past-you” really believed in the Nazi ideology, fought for it, and gave your life for it. (The emotions would have been every bit as intense as those of religious followers).
This in no way proves that Nazi ideology is correct. It could however explain your attachment to it.

By: Ray Bright

Ray Bright — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 18:14:00 +0000

To Danny,

If what you say is true, then we need to invent an alternative education which helps the young people. One thing that most people don’t want to face is the almost universal antisemitism, at least in the Christian and Muslim world. With such antisemitism there is no chance for true assimilation, assimilation with the antisemites means denial of ones Jewishness. Americans are not particularly anti-Irish, therefore Irish can assimilate without having to deny themselves. Jews on the other hand, are in huge self-denial. There is an epidemics of self-hatred and Israel hatred among American Jews. American Jews are not aware that they are a nation. They think that they are “Russians” or “Polish”, or “Ukrainian”, or “Hungarian”. They think that Jewishness is only religion. They don’t know that their ancestors never thought of themselves as Russians, neither did Russian think of them as one of theirs. Jews in Europe were refugees of different ethnicity, living in isolation, speaking different language, eating different food, believing in different religion, singing different songs, etc.
Yet, because of the fear of antisemitism their ancestors opted to just be a “religious Jews”, because in American there was a remarkable degree of religious tolerance. Their experiences from Russia (pogroms) taught them to keep low profile and pretend to be like everybody else.
We need a different education for young Jews. First of all, they need to learn about universal antisemitism. They need to learn about the complicity of the world in Nazi crimes. They also need to learn about the immense contribution that the Jewish people made to humanity and to Western civilization. They also need to learn the beauty of Jewish culture: Jewish songs, stories, jokes and wisdom.

By: Ray Bright

Ray Bright — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 18:03:31 +0000

When I am speaking of the shared ancestral experience, I do not think it is genetically based. It has a different mechanism, which as yet is not fully understood. Mechanism, however, does not matter. What matters that such thing exists and has the most profound impact. It is the very foundation of our mind and our personality. It is true that Torah, was the glue that held the Jewish people together. It was like a protective shield while Jews were scattered and persecuted among the nations. However whether I believe in Judaism, or not, my mind and heart are made from our shared ancestral experience.
*you are mistaken when you say that “I am proud”. I don’t claim that our nation and our unique experience is higher or more beautiful than others. Just like I could not say that an eagle is more beautiful than an albatross, or that a rose is more beautiful than a lily. I am saying that a loss of the Jewish people, and of the Jewish experience would be a HUGE loss to humanity. Just like the loss of the Chinese nation would be. Even if the Jewish nation only has 12 million and Chinese perhaps 1.2 Billion, their relative value as a nation is about the same.
Likewise, if the Jews suddenly propagated like crazy (or should I say like Arabs). Lets say each Jewish woman gives birth to 10 children, and then within short three generations Jews could be as numerous as the Chinese, yet the value of the collective Jewish experience would not me any higher than it is now.
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This in my opinion is a totally missing understanding in public discourse. The modern Western thought values the individual, but is completely unaware of the value of the collective experience without which the individual would not be who he/she is.
They mistakenly assume that “Palestinians” as a group, have as much value as Jews. Yes, each individual life could be said to have the same value, but we are talking about the value of the collective, and than is not simply made by adding the values of the individuals. It is a function of the unique history and culture shared by the group. Palestinians have none of that. Jews have at least 3500 years of (often tragic) but nevertheless, extraordinarily rich history.
I am not a writer, so it is hard for me to put this point forward. Yet, I believe that this, more than the religion, is the true reason for preserving the Jewish nation and state.

By: Ray Bright

Ray Bright — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 09:33:14 +0000

Mister,

If America conquers Saudi Arabia, then God bless them. The moral right comes with conquest. Arabs did not rule Iraq or Egypt either. They were just a bunch of nomadic Bedouins traders and caravan robbers. They conquered Iraq, and that’s why Iraq is an Arab county. They conquered Egypt and Syria, so that’ why they are Arab countries. By the same logic, if USA conquers “Saudi” Arabia, then “Saudi” Arabia will be morally American.
And indeed, that will be highly moral: Just think — Saudis have been living of American money, paid to them for the American Oil that happens to be under the sand, that they stole from Persians 1400 years ago. Which Persians stole from Babylonians some 2600 years ago, etc.
The oil is certainly not Arab. They did not created it, they did not discover it. They did not even extract it, nor did they discover the internal combustion engines. All of that came from the West, was paid by the money from the West. So why is it Arab?
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However the story with Israel is very different, without question, Jews are the people who love that land the most. Arabs have their Mecca, Christians made their capitol in Vatican, and other places. Only Jews consider Israel and Jerusalem as their most important place on Earth.
So let’s divide Mecca, before we divide Jerusalem. Or me can make a deal with the Arabs: We won’t nuke your mecca, if you f**k off and let us have our capitol in peace!

By: Mister

Mister — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 13:22:43 +0000

Ray, that doesn’t make any sense. If say, America conquers Saudi Arabia, and manages it much better, does that mean that they morally deserve it?

Or because the Kurds have no homeland, can they conquer half of greece?

But the’ll use it better then the greeks!

And Kurds have made so many contributions to society (ok, what if they did?)

And the’ll keep the greek holy places open to everyone!

Doesn’t matter for jack. You stole that land. If you steal a watch because a) you need it and b) you’ll take care of best c) and share it

You’ll still find yourself in Jail. Unless the watch was orginally yours.

By: Danny the Admin

Danny the Admin — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 06:43:36 +0000

See, Ray, the problem is that secular patriotism is empirically unsustainable. Even Ben Gurion’s children were assimilated, let alone grandchildren.

By: Ray Bright

Ray Bright — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 05:11:11 +0000

Jimmy,

I am born Jew, and even if I did not want to consider myself a Jew, the rest of the world would. So I don’t really have a choice in the matter.

Why should I deny my father/mother and all my ancestors even if I have rejected the superstitions called “religion”?

By: Kashmiri Nomad

Kashmiri Nomad — Sun, 29 Mar 2009 14:02:16 +0000

Samson Blinded explains why secular Israelis do not have a leg to stand on. Islam And The West

By: JimmyDaGeek

JimmyDaGeek — Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:32:54 +0000

What is a secular Jew? Does that mean they consider themselves accidental Jews because their parents were Jewish? Why should a secular Jew care if they are “Jewish”, or anything, for that matter. What good is it to call oneself a secular Jew if s/he claims to believe in G-d, but not in the Torah or any of the laws stated within? What ethnicity do Jews share that makes it worthwhile to want to consider oneself Jewish? Other than a history of persecution, what do secular Jews have that keeps them together?

I ask these questions because the point is well-made that unless one has a biblical basis for a claim to historical Israel, then any acreage, like Uganda, would make a suitable secular Jewish home. “To the victor goes the spoils.” Although Israelis won the land, they are being kept on it by the US. The Saudis and friends are doing the utmost to reverse that so that they, too, can claim might over right.