What’s the point of maintaining an Israeli state? Neturei Karta is right: Jews have even more rights as dhimmi under Muslim jurisdiction. When the country belonged to Arabs, Jews could settle freely in Hebron and any other place. Jewish education was religious or patriotic, whatever the Jews chose. Every Jewish group enjoyed autonomy, low taxes, absence of conscription, and until the advent of Zionism – safety. Jews were free to speak Hebrew, lived in isolated communities without Arabs, maintained friendly relations with Muslims, and had no occupational restrictions.
A third of Jews was exterminated in WWII. Another third dies out in the American assimilation oven. The remaining third was gathered in Israel from all corners of earth. Israel drained all Jewish communities. The preconditions look messianic: two thirds of Jews annihilated, the remaining third’s condition is hopelessly bad. Israel’s only purpose is to preserve some Jews from the universal assimilation. When Jews are no longer religious, Israel can at least provide them with national identity. Even if the Israeli experiment fails, the Jews who stream out of the country would still preserve a post-shock sense of identity perhaps sufficient to guard them against assimilation until the religious identity is acceptably redefined.
I agree,
We do need a new religious consciousness.
The old is dead or dying. This is the case with all religions. The age of Reason and science are decapitating them all. Christianity is a walking corpse, Judaism is empty rituals, Hinduism is a museum. Islam has never had a spiritual core, rather it has been a political ideology of Arab imperialism.
A true religion cannot be Jewish, any more than geometry can be Greek or algebra Hindu. A true religion is just that TRUE.
A true religion will also recognize the special unique contributions of various groups of people and seek to preserve them. Among them the Jewish contribution and it's value to humanity at large. In the modern world, not only Jews, but all peoples are intermarrying and this process is only going to accelerate with the time.
With some understanding the the unique Jewish way the Jewish character, with it's spiritual and cultural aspects can be preserved and expand even as Jews intermarry with non-Jews.
Jews don't need to be ethnically Jewish to be Jewish. With the right understanding within few generations we can be 300 Million Jews, (with several millions of Chinese, and Indian ethnicity!)
It is obvious, after WWII at the very least, that there must be a Jewish state, so that Jews, however defined, have somewhere to go the next time the extermination starts (and it will).
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But Ray, since you reject Judaism, would you please, either here or in the forum, DEFINE the Jewish religion you think would attract all those Chinese and Indians (not to mention Jews)?
Yes it was very hard for the Nazis to round up all the Jews from different places.
If they'll all be concentrated in one tiny strip of land, there will be no need for concentration camps.
What is wrong with the world, eh? Are all the nations just so frustrated with failing to achieve anything meaningful in their existence, that they constantly have to pick on the tiniest kid in school?
Eric,
Christianity at it's core is antisemitic religion. Christianity is a messianic Jewish sect that became a proselytizing religion. Being a Jewish sect, they have never rejected the Jewish scriptures (Torah). However in Torah Mr. God is speaking specifically to Jews, makes covenant with the Jews, and makes all sort of promises to the Jews, the descendants of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob.
In order for the non-Hebrew Christians, to make this their religion work for them, they had to invent the idea that they are the "Jews" and "Israel" that the bible is referring to. To them "Israel" is some imaginary "spiritual" club to which they belong, and the real ethnic Jews don't.
The real, ethnic Jews are a natural insult to them. This started in 2nd and 3rd Century when Christianity spread beyond ethnic Jews.
It is intolerable for Christians that the ethnic and/or religious Jews should be the "real Israel" and "the chosen people".
Even the "friendly" Christians who are taught that "Jews are indeed the chosen people of God", can very easily turn against the Jews. The notion is simply insulting.
Muhamedanism has it's own religious reasons for hating Jews. First of all they stole most of their ideas from Jews. Secondly they try and believe that they are the descendants of the first born child of Abraham. Thirdly and most insultingly, Jews in Arabia rejected Muhammad flatly as ignorant imposted he was (rather than a prophet). This is hard to forgive.
Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists and Japanese Shinto don't and never had prejudice against Jews.
There is no solution to this problem other than accelerated death of all religions. They are on their death bed.
And I am not saying death of spirituality, I am not saying a world where there is no higher value than money and material possession. I am saying that the so called religions have been the worst disaster to befall humanity. They need to be replaced with a new religion that is worthy of modern humans.
Ray, my solution to this problem is to promote traditional (non-fanatic) theistic Judaism throughout the 3rd world and among visible minorities in North America and in Europe, and not among first world Christians (since many of them are anti-Jewish even if they're atheist) and not among any Muslims anywhere (they are already on the quest for pure monotheism, just like Jews). My goal is 150 million Jews by 2058. That's 50 years from now. My plan is to have all the various sects/ groups pitch in ie. get Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Sephardic, Reconstructionist, Karaite Jews, and the Samaritan Israelites
to each promote the conversion of about 21,428,571 people.
I am very very serious about this.
I have already started approaching rabbis about this. I will be approaching financiers as well. This will be a 2-pronged strategy- improving the converts lives through health care/ education, etc., and also encourage them to join us. We need people. We must love them, because they will save our religion.
Who cares about born Jews who are now assimilating. There is a whole world out there, with many people seeking a new spiritual faith. We have a great spiritual faith. If we are kind and loving and encouraging, then my above plan can certainly work. My plan is that within 15 years, we will have rabbinical academies who will have trained rabbis, so that those Chinese/ Mexican/ Brazilian/ African rabbis can establish their own minhagim and their own Jewish outreach programs and their own yeshivot. I am very serious about this.
To achieve this we need a spirit of true compromise, faith, and love towards all humanity, and lots of work. If we act in that way, it can certainly be done. I am sure of it.
Dave — A noble goal, and I wish you success, but why tell Ray — he rejects Judaism.
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Ray — PLEASE discribe the "new religion that is worthy of modern humans" that is to replace all others.
Joseph, Thanks.
I wasn't just telling Ray, I was telling everyone on this website.
Dave,
Have you heard of Shavei? They seem to be doing something similar, with lost Jews. How much headway have you made on this goal? How can people help?
I could describe it for you, Jo.
But I will be brief, and to the point…
so I guess we'll have to see what Mr.Sparkle will come up with.
There is no solution to this problem other than accelerated death of all religions. They are on their death bed.
– Ray Bright
How do you propose to bring this about, Ray? You can't destroy something that is beyond your capacity to fathom. Who or what will you target for death? The people who practice religion? Gees, that'd be a novel solution.
As far as your, new religion that is worthy of modern humans is concerned, what amazing truths will you reveal that won't just be plagiarism of what already exists as the body of religious teaching and practice?
I look forward with interest to what you have to offer.
Cheers,
enegue
I don't know about converting millions of people, but surely if Judaism was attractive there is no reason for American intermarriage to be a demographic minus.
If 50% if intermarried Jews' children identify as Jews, there will be no detrimental effect from intermarriage demographically. If 75% do, it will be a great demographic boon. I suspect many Jews have not done this math. If 4 Jews in-marry you get 2 married couples. If 4 Jews out-marry and 3 of the partners convert and raise the children Jewish, you have 3 married couples, not to mention hybrid vigor.
Don't count American Jews out demographically.
Quijybo, I live in Canada, and I do count out Canadian Jews demographically. You've got a good point, but…
Have you met any converts? I have met several.
They have come to us. They want to be Jewish.
We don't have to persuade them that Judaism is a good religion. The converts are our future.
Why are jews disproportionately represented in the ranks of the wealthy, the artistic and the Nobel laureates?
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It is because they have been persecuted refugees for millennia.
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"what doesn't kill me makes me stronger"
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"tall poppies get cut down first"
Quijybo
Quijybo, you said if "Judaism was attractive".
What would make Judaism attractive? Or perhaps tho right question is "what kind of Judaism is attractive?"
There always some gentiles who tend to hang out with Jew. What they are attracted to, has usually nothing to do with Judaism. There is a different kind of conversation happening between Jewish. It would be great if people who feel at home with Jews, could "become" part of the Jewish without having to go through outdated religious rituals and all sort of mumbo-jumbo.
I believe antisemitism is the reason why most people born from mixed marriages disassociate themselves from the Jewish identity. Even in America, which is the least antisemitic of all Western countries, Jews are afraid to be 'different'.
Hi LJ,
I am only writing notes on this matter so far.
I am trying to organize an introduction to Judaism class for the Chinese community in the city where I live.
That will hopefully start this coming fall.
The rabbi at whose synagogue it will be held already has told me that he has had some Chinese people (not Kaifeng Jewish descendants, as far as I know), who have already approached him about conversion to Judaism.
Since I am currently studying for a business course and running my own business, I will be too busy for the next month to pursue this goal. But I will be seriously working on it after mid-March 2008. However, if you're interested in this project, please e-mail me at superdave8002@hotmail.com and we can discuss it.
About Shavei- I've read practically all their info which is posted on the net. They're a great group, But they are Only interested in the lost tribes, or groups like the Kaifeng Jews, or the Abuyudaya of Uganda. They have explicitly said they are not in favour of promoting conversions otherwise. I think that helping our Kaifeng brothers and sisters and our Abuyudaya brothers and sisters is a great start- but it's nowhere near enough. My conversion is definitely do-able although it would probably cost about U.S.$ 1 billion per year for 50 years, just to finance the rabbis doing the conversions on the basis of one rabbi guiding each group of 100 converts per year through the process (equals about 26,800 rabbis constantly working only on conversions)
However, that is a very small price to pay for the End of Anti-Judaism.
Dave — Please consider starting a thread on the Forum here about your proposed Intro to Judaism. I, personally, promise to restrain myself from my usual attempts at humor (on that subject) (I will really try, anyway
.
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You must understand, however, that historically, any evangelism by Jews only increases anti-semitism. In fact, I believe that Christianity, when understood as what it was originally — a Jewish sect — is the only instance of Jews actively trying to convert anyone (except a prospective schiksa wife). The more successful the effort to convert, the worse the anti-Jewish feeling will be: Not a reason to give up, but something to realize.
bar — It is very sad, but in (the Zoroastrian) Nietzche's case, what did not kill him, did not make him stronger, but simply drove him insane.
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For the sake of argument: Is it not possible that "[J]ews [are] disproportionately represented in the ranks of the wealthy, the artistic and the Nobel laureates" because they are God's chosen people?
I absolutely agree with you- no outreach in western Christian countries- in my opinion it's like flogging a dead horse to do outreach in America or in any part of the western Christian world. With an exception- we could promote Judaism to groups like African-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Native Americans, Japanese-Americans ie. visible minorities who are officially Christian, but who frankly speaking have been considered irrelevant by the vast majority of Americans of European Christian heritage. Christianity was pushed on them, and since then they have been still treated as irrelevant and ignored in terms of being fellow (Christian) co-religionists.
This is basically a form of racism.
Every so often you can read articles in the Jewish press about a Chinese American or an African-American who converts to Judaism.
I think the main point is to promote Judaism in the 3rd world. That is our very best hope. In fact, if we do 2 things: 1) work and help people on practical development projects in the 3rd world and 2) provide information about Judaism to our new friends (and I mean that most sincerely) in a respectful, kind, welcoming, and Non-patronizing way,
I think we have a very good chance of reaching my goal of 150 million new Jews by the year 2058.
I think the Jewish religion can have a lot of appeal since it appeals to both the intellect and the emotions.
Joseph, As you know, most non-Muslim/ non-Christian people in the 3rd world have never heard of Judaism, so they have no pre-conceived ideas/ prejudices. Even most Christians in the 3rd world tend not to have any knowledge of Judaism or Jews.
Joseph, did you know that historians estimate that 10 percent of the Roman Empire was Jewish, many/ most of them converts.
Dave — No, I had not heard that about the Roman Empire; very interesting. Targeting the 3rd worlders does sound the most practical place to start.
My goal is that we not make the 3rd worlders into copies of Sephardic or Ashkenazic Jews.
We must welcome their input, as long as it does not contradict Tanach and halacha.