Comments on: Is leaven prohibited on Pesach? http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm A Machiavellian Perspective on the Middle East Conflict Sun, 21 Mar 2010 00:16:12 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Danny the Admin http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-111473 Danny the Admin Mon, 30 Mar 2009 07:09:28 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-111473 <blockquote> Ex12:19 prohibits sor and hametz during the Pesach. Sor cannot mean leaven because the ancients lacked the concept of it. They used old crumbled bread mixed with water for leaven. Their line of reasoning was that old bread causes the dough to rise; they did not conceptualize yeast and needed no word for it. Imagine that sor means specifically leavened dough. Why, then, the Torah commonly uses a different word, betzek where it speaks of the regular dough, certainly polluted with leaven? Lev2:11 prohibits burning of sor. Obviously, one doesn’t sacrifice dough. The parallel prohibition of burning honey suggests that sor is some kind of holiday bread. During the solemn festival of Pesach, only basic bread is allowed, not holiday bread made with honey and, probably, dates as was the Egyptian custom. </blockquote>

Ex12:19 prohibits sor and hametz during the Pesach. Sor cannot mean leaven because the ancients lacked the concept of it. They used old crumbled bread mixed with water for leaven. Their line of reasoning was that old bread causes the dough to rise; they did not conceptualize yeast and needed no word for it.
Imagine that sor means specifically leavened dough. Why, then, the Torah commonly uses a different word, betzek where it speaks of the regular dough, certainly polluted with leaven?
Lev2:11 prohibits burning of sor. Obviously, one doesn’t sacrifice dough. The parallel prohibition of burning honey suggests that sor is some kind of holiday bread. During the solemn festival of Pesach, only basic bread is allowed, not holiday bread made with honey and, probably, dates as was the Egyptian custom.

]]> By: Matt http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-111472 Matt Mon, 30 Mar 2009 02:41:29 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-111472 Hey, So if you define hametz as being baked bread, then what do you define seor as? Later Hey,

So if you define hametz as being baked bread, then what do you define seor as?

Later

]]> By: Danny the Admin http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-104546 Danny the Admin Tue, 05 Aug 2008 18:31:06 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-104546 <blockquote>Reading “hametz” as “leaven” makes no sense in Exodus 12:39: “They roasted dough because it was not leavened.” And if it were leavened, shouldn’t we roast it?</blockquote>

Reading “hametz” as “leaven” makes no sense in Exodus 12:39: “They roasted dough because it was not leavened.” And if it were leavened, shouldn’t we roast it?

]]> By: Jimmy http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-104520 Jimmy Tue, 05 Aug 2008 14:40:12 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-104520 Apparently you are not familiar with sourdough bread which uses a flour/water mixture called starter. This starter is maintained using wild yeast. As a result, it does take 24 hours to raise bread using this starter. A small amount of starter is reserved and replenished between bakings. I don't know where you got your old crumb idea to make bread. Old bread is certainly used in making other fermented products. Russians use rye bread to make kvass. My grandmother used it to make pickles. You need to provide better sources if you are rewriting the Exodus saga. Your speculation is not supported by any passage. During the exodus, the dough was apparently kept in some kind of vessel, bound up in clothes, carried on one's shoulder. There was no sweat involved. One could infer that the dough was created the evening before, assuming a daily bread baking cycle where the night's dough was baked the next evening. The Bible makes no mention of when or how the dough was baked during the travel to Succot. If you and others choose to disparage Rabbinic interpretation and authority, then where do you turn for a consistent authoritative interpretation? You do not need to read to much of the Pentateuch to realize that something is missing. That is where the Oral Law comes in, embodied in the Mishnah and Talmud. Apparently you are not familiar with sourdough bread which uses a flour/water mixture called starter. This starter is maintained using wild yeast. As a result, it does take 24 hours to raise bread using this starter. A small amount of starter is reserved and replenished between bakings.

I don’t know where you got your old crumb idea to make bread. Old bread is certainly used in making other fermented products. Russians use rye bread to make kvass. My grandmother used it to make pickles.

You need to provide better sources if you are rewriting the Exodus saga. Your speculation is not supported by any passage. During the exodus, the dough was apparently kept in some kind of vessel, bound up in clothes, carried on one’s shoulder. There was no sweat involved. One could infer that the dough was created the evening before, assuming a daily bread baking cycle where the night’s dough was baked the next evening. The Bible makes no mention of when or how the dough was baked during the travel to Succot.

If you and others choose to disparage Rabbinic interpretation and authority, then where do you turn for a consistent authoritative interpretation? You do not need to read to much of the Pentateuch to realize that something is missing. That is where the Oral Law comes in, embodied in the Mishnah and Talmud.

]]> By: chaim http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-104069 chaim Sat, 02 Aug 2008 12:10:45 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-104069 Danny: Crumbs are dry, old-way yeast is still-wet dough specially kept for this. Every time you write the word "rabbinical" you already know my answer. In deed, rabbis took the scientific study saying a floor leavens after being 13 mins wet,including yeast or not.They took "leavening" as the most minimal chemical leavening. If so, your body has moisture also, and there are things leavening there too. Fruits leaven due to natural ferments, etc. But the law meaning is different. Has to be with believing. Danny:
Crumbs are dry, old-way yeast is still-wet dough specially kept for this. Every time you write the word “rabbinical” you already know my answer. In deed, rabbis took the scientific study saying a floor leavens after being 13 mins wet,including yeast or not.They took “leavening” as the most minimal chemical leavening. If so, your body has moisture also, and there are things leavening there too. Fruits leaven due to natural ferments, etc.
But the law meaning is different. Has to be with believing.

]]> By: Danny the Admin http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-103993 Danny the Admin Fri, 01 Aug 2008 20:47:18 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-103993 Chaim, why not crumbs? It's the most obvious way to make yeast: collect yesterday's crumbs. I agree that leavening from crumbs or old dough takes about a day. Still, almost the entire day have passed: we made dough, as usual, somewhat before the evening, and roasted it on the way, quite into the daytime. By the rabbinical standards, it was hopelessly leavened. Also consider that the 18-minute rabbinical cutoff was introduced for the old-type yeast rather than the modern efficient one. So the point stands that the Pesach prohibition of leaven is superfluous compared to the Torah. Chaim, why not crumbs? It’s the most obvious way to make yeast: collect yesterday’s crumbs.
I agree that leavening from crumbs or old dough takes about a day. Still, almost the entire day have passed: we made dough, as usual, somewhat before the evening, and roasted it on the way, quite into the daytime. By the rabbinical standards, it was hopelessly leavened. Also consider that the 18-minute rabbinical cutoff was introduced for the old-type yeast rather than the modern efficient one. So the point stands that the Pesach prohibition of leaven is superfluous compared to the Torah.

]]> By: Danny the Admin http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-103990 Danny the Admin Fri, 01 Aug 2008 20:39:54 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-103990 It so happens that I care a lot more about matzah than, say, about famines in sub-Saharan Africa. It so happens that I care a lot more about matzah than, say, about famines in sub-Saharan Africa.

]]> By: chaim http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-103972 chaim Fri, 01 Aug 2008 19:04:04 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-103972 Some observations: Bread back then was made using old dough as yeast. But NOT CRUMBS. Old dough was maintained always separated ,and selected to make the yeast effect better and quick .Remember Middle Oriental bread is not "French bread", super leavened. it's more like as a pitah or laffah. But those old dough for leavening was not so effective as today yeast, so, women needed at least 1 day to let it leaven up to a minimum level for a pitah. The commandment means "leave it ALL behind and trust your maintenance to Him", not to prepare a feast with a lot of time. When you are a captive slave, and your King says you I will free you with a iron fist, you better go and do it now, trust your life and heart to your Creator. That's why we remember this fact every year. Same thing did Abraham, Itchack, Yaakov, Moshe, etc. About Wine: Wine is a tottaly different issue, since wine you never make it so quick as bread.A total different concept. But you know, rabbis love to distort the idea for making a ritual. I wish a lot of Bnei Israel to understand the true meaning of Tanach, in order to claim their knowledge back. About roasting: Bread in the tents was baked in small open pits, against the earth walls or over the stones. Thus, it roasted quickly. About carrying the dough over the shoulders: Please compare this with the oriental costume back then.Nothing out of ordinary. In deed, just telling it was not leaved to leaven at home, but carried as floor on the shoulders. Once the caravan stops, you quickly make the dough and roast it. As usual, Ray, as usual, you Some observations:
Bread back then was made using old dough as yeast. But NOT CRUMBS. Old dough was maintained always separated ,and selected to make the yeast effect better and quick .Remember Middle Oriental bread is not “French bread”, super leavened. it’s more like as a pitah or laffah. But those old dough for leavening was not so effective as today yeast, so, women needed at least 1 day to let it leaven up to a minimum level for a pitah.
The commandment means “leave it ALL behind and trust your maintenance to Him”, not to prepare a feast with a lot of time. When you are a captive slave, and your King says you I will free you with a iron fist, you better go and do it now, trust your life and heart to your Creator.
That’s why we remember this fact every year.
Same thing did Abraham, Itchack, Yaakov, Moshe, etc.
About Wine: Wine is a tottaly different issue, since wine you never make it so quick as bread.A total different concept. But you know, rabbis love to distort the idea for making a ritual.
I wish a lot of Bnei Israel to understand the true meaning of Tanach, in order to claim their knowledge back.
About roasting: Bread in the tents was baked in small open pits, against the earth walls or over the stones. Thus, it roasted quickly.
About carrying the dough over the shoulders: Please compare this with the oriental costume back then.Nothing out of ordinary. In deed, just telling it was not leaved to leaven at home, but carried as floor on the shoulders. Once the caravan stops, you quickly make the dough and roast it.
As usual, Ray, as usual, you

]]> By: Ray Bright http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-103958 Ray Bright Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:56:37 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-103958 I wonder, don't Jews in the 21st Century have more important issues to address than how to roast matzah??? * To me, it is particularly shocking when someone with a superior intellect like Obadiah, is devoting so much attention to such nonsense. I wonder, don’t Jews in the 21st Century have more important issues to address than how to roast matzah???
*
To me, it is particularly shocking when someone with a superior intellect like Obadiah, is devoting so much attention to such nonsense.

]]> By: Moshe Fried http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-103953 Moshe Fried Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:30:19 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-103953 This is another example of Rabbis having changed the meaning of Torah, and enacting, sometimes, ridiculous rules, which only increased their power over us. What can you expect from clerics who stated, in the Talmud, that they could enact rules that could overrule,even,God. How deleterius it has been for us, as a people, to call all rules enacted by the Rabbis "Torah", which made those rules binding on us. Blindly following the dictates of Rabbis has led to many disasters. The word "Torah" loses it's holy and powerful meaning when a Talmud Tipesh can make "Torah". This is another example of Rabbis having changed the meaning of Torah, and enacting, sometimes, ridiculous rules, which only increased their power over us. What can you expect from clerics who stated, in the Talmud, that they could enact rules that could overrule,even,God. How deleterius it has been for us, as a people, to call all rules enacted by the Rabbis “Torah”, which made those rules binding on us. Blindly following the dictates of Rabbis has led to many disasters. The word “Torah” loses it’s holy and powerful meaning when a Talmud Tipesh can make “Torah”.

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