Comments on: Is leaven prohibited on Pesach? http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm A Machiavellian Perspective on the Middle East Conflict Sat, 19 May 2012 18:30:58 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Moshe Fried http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-115533 Moshe Fried Sun, 02 May 2010 14:04:43 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-115533 I notice that no one has commented on this, and wonder why. I notice that no one has commented on this, and wonder why.

]]> By: Moshe Fried http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-115532 Moshe Fried Sun, 02 May 2010 14:01:40 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-115532 Danny, Orthodox Judaism was entirely made up by men. All men are fallible. A person who dares to use his own mind, and logic, to decide what and how to act, cannot be an orthodox Jew,or a member of any religion based upon prophecy and magic or the infallibilty of any leader ot party. That include secular religions, like Ateism or Socialism. Yet, he/she can be a good Jew. Orthodox Judaism claims that if a majority of Chazal says that one and one is three, it is three. How can a person with your ability to reason continue to believe in Orthodox Judaism.? The overall leadership of Chazal has led us, from one disaster to another. After every failure of their leadership, they blame us for not obeying them closely enough. Aditionally, they do not, and never have, agreed with each other. Our non Chazal leadership has, mostly, been as bad as the so-called "sages". What we Jews have to do is to learn how to reason logically, and to follow reason, not magical thinking. That is called growing up, and giving up magic. That is called freedom. Danny, Orthodox Judaism was entirely made up by men. All men are fallible. A person who dares to use his own mind, and logic, to decide what and how to act, cannot be an orthodox Jew,or a member of any religion based upon prophecy and magic or the infallibilty of any leader ot party. That include secular religions, like Ateism or Socialism. Yet, he/she can be a good Jew.
Orthodox Judaism claims that if a majority of Chazal says that one and one is three, it is three.
How can a person with your ability to reason continue to believe in Orthodox Judaism.?
The overall leadership of Chazal has led us, from one disaster to another. After every failure of their leadership, they blame us for not obeying them closely enough.
Aditionally, they do not, and never have, agreed with each other.
Our non Chazal leadership has, mostly, been as bad as the so-called “sages”.
What we Jews have to do is to learn how to reason logically, and to follow reason, not magical thinking. That is called growing up, and giving up magic. That is called freedom.

]]> By: Danny the Admin http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-115527 Danny the Admin Sun, 02 May 2010 09:58:46 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-115527 In antiquity, as in rural areas of Egypt today, dough was baked the same day or the next day. The previous evening, we prepared the dough as usual, since we had no idea we would leave the land in a matter of hours. The next day, we roasted the bread on the way, thus around midday. This is the same time the dough would have been baked, anyway. Thus it had been leavened to a normal degree. The only difference is that it was not baked. In antiquity, as in rural areas of Egypt today, dough was baked the same day or the next day. The previous evening, we prepared the dough as usual, since we had no idea we would leave the land in a matter of hours. The next day, we roasted the bread on the way, thus around midday. This is the same time the dough would have been baked, anyway. Thus it had been leavened to a normal degree. The only difference is that it was not baked.

]]> By: B http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-115522 B Sat, 01 May 2010 20:43:09 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-115522 true...the Torah has been added to. One thing I noticed was that in your reference to Ex 12, you only included half of the verse. You said "Reading “hametz” as “leaven” makes no sense in Exodus 12:39: “They roasted dough because it was not leavened.” And if it were leavened, shouldn’t we roast it?" The second half tells you why they roasted the dough... 39And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth out of Egypt, for it was not leavened; <strong>because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry,</strong> ..." true…the Torah has been added to. One thing I noticed was that in your reference to Ex 12, you only included half of the verse. You said
“Reading “hametz” as “leaven” makes no sense in Exodus 12:39: “They roasted dough because it was not leavened.” And if it were leavened, shouldn’t we roast it?”

The second half tells you why they roasted the dough…
39And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth out of Egypt, for it was not leavened; because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry, …”

]]> By: Danny the Admin http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-111473 Danny the Admin Mon, 30 Mar 2009 07:09:28 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-111473 <blockquote> Ex12:19 prohibits sor and hametz during the Pesach. Sor cannot mean leaven because the ancients lacked the concept of it. They used old crumbled bread mixed with water for leaven. Their line of reasoning was that old bread causes the dough to rise; they did not conceptualize yeast and needed no word for it. Imagine that sor means specifically leavened dough. Why, then, the Torah commonly uses a different word, betzek where it speaks of the regular dough, certainly polluted with leaven? Lev2:11 prohibits burning of sor. Obviously, one doesn’t sacrifice dough. The parallel prohibition of burning honey suggests that sor is some kind of holiday bread. During the solemn festival of Pesach, only basic bread is allowed, not holiday bread made with honey and, probably, dates as was the Egyptian custom. </blockquote>

Ex12:19 prohibits sor and hametz during the Pesach. Sor cannot mean leaven because the ancients lacked the concept of it. They used old crumbled bread mixed with water for leaven. Their line of reasoning was that old bread causes the dough to rise; they did not conceptualize yeast and needed no word for it.
Imagine that sor means specifically leavened dough. Why, then, the Torah commonly uses a different word, betzek where it speaks of the regular dough, certainly polluted with leaven?
Lev2:11 prohibits burning of sor. Obviously, one doesn’t sacrifice dough. The parallel prohibition of burning honey suggests that sor is some kind of holiday bread. During the solemn festival of Pesach, only basic bread is allowed, not holiday bread made with honey and, probably, dates as was the Egyptian custom.

]]> By: Matt http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-111472 Matt Mon, 30 Mar 2009 02:41:29 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-111472 Hey, So if you define hametz as being baked bread, then what do you define seor as? Later Hey,

So if you define hametz as being baked bread, then what do you define seor as?

Later

]]> By: Danny the Admin http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-104546 Danny the Admin Tue, 05 Aug 2008 18:31:06 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-104546 <blockquote>Reading “hametz” as “leaven” makes no sense in Exodus 12:39: “They roasted dough because it was not leavened.” And if it were leavened, shouldn’t we roast it?</blockquote>

Reading “hametz” as “leaven” makes no sense in Exodus 12:39: “They roasted dough because it was not leavened.” And if it were leavened, shouldn’t we roast it?

]]> By: Jimmy http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-104520 Jimmy Tue, 05 Aug 2008 14:40:12 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-104520 Apparently you are not familiar with sourdough bread which uses a flour/water mixture called starter. This starter is maintained using wild yeast. As a result, it does take 24 hours to raise bread using this starter. A small amount of starter is reserved and replenished between bakings. I don't know where you got your old crumb idea to make bread. Old bread is certainly used in making other fermented products. Russians use rye bread to make kvass. My grandmother used it to make pickles. You need to provide better sources if you are rewriting the Exodus saga. Your speculation is not supported by any passage. During the exodus, the dough was apparently kept in some kind of vessel, bound up in clothes, carried on one's shoulder. There was no sweat involved. One could infer that the dough was created the evening before, assuming a daily bread baking cycle where the night's dough was baked the next evening. The Bible makes no mention of when or how the dough was baked during the travel to Succot. If you and others choose to disparage Rabbinic interpretation and authority, then where do you turn for a consistent authoritative interpretation? You do not need to read to much of the Pentateuch to realize that something is missing. That is where the Oral Law comes in, embodied in the Mishnah and Talmud. Apparently you are not familiar with sourdough bread which uses a flour/water mixture called starter. This starter is maintained using wild yeast. As a result, it does take 24 hours to raise bread using this starter. A small amount of starter is reserved and replenished between bakings.

I don’t know where you got your old crumb idea to make bread. Old bread is certainly used in making other fermented products. Russians use rye bread to make kvass. My grandmother used it to make pickles.

You need to provide better sources if you are rewriting the Exodus saga. Your speculation is not supported by any passage. During the exodus, the dough was apparently kept in some kind of vessel, bound up in clothes, carried on one’s shoulder. There was no sweat involved. One could infer that the dough was created the evening before, assuming a daily bread baking cycle where the night’s dough was baked the next evening. The Bible makes no mention of when or how the dough was baked during the travel to Succot.

If you and others choose to disparage Rabbinic interpretation and authority, then where do you turn for a consistent authoritative interpretation? You do not need to read to much of the Pentateuch to realize that something is missing. That is where the Oral Law comes in, embodied in the Mishnah and Talmud.

]]> By: chaim http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-104069 chaim Sat, 02 Aug 2008 12:10:45 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-104069 Danny: Crumbs are dry, old-way yeast is still-wet dough specially kept for this. Every time you write the word "rabbinical" you already know my answer. In deed, rabbis took the scientific study saying a floor leavens after being 13 mins wet,including yeast or not.They took "leavening" as the most minimal chemical leavening. If so, your body has moisture also, and there are things leavening there too. Fruits leaven due to natural ferments, etc. But the law meaning is different. Has to be with believing. Danny:
Crumbs are dry, old-way yeast is still-wet dough specially kept for this. Every time you write the word “rabbinical” you already know my answer. In deed, rabbis took the scientific study saying a floor leavens after being 13 mins wet,including yeast or not.They took “leavening” as the most minimal chemical leavening. If so, your body has moisture also, and there are things leavening there too. Fruits leaven due to natural ferments, etc.
But the law meaning is different. Has to be with believing.

]]> By: Danny the Admin http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm/comment-page-1#comment-103993 Danny the Admin Fri, 01 Aug 2008 20:47:18 +0000 http://samsonblinded.org/blog/is-leaven-prohibited-on-pesach.htm#comment-103993 Chaim, why not crumbs? It's the most obvious way to make yeast: collect yesterday's crumbs. I agree that leavening from crumbs or old dough takes about a day. Still, almost the entire day have passed: we made dough, as usual, somewhat before the evening, and roasted it on the way, quite into the daytime. By the rabbinical standards, it was hopelessly leavened. Also consider that the 18-minute rabbinical cutoff was introduced for the old-type yeast rather than the modern efficient one. So the point stands that the Pesach prohibition of leaven is superfluous compared to the Torah. Chaim, why not crumbs? It’s the most obvious way to make yeast: collect yesterday’s crumbs.
I agree that leavening from crumbs or old dough takes about a day. Still, almost the entire day have passed: we made dough, as usual, somewhat before the evening, and roasted it on the way, quite into the daytime. By the rabbinical standards, it was hopelessly leavened. Also consider that the 18-minute rabbinical cutoff was introduced for the old-type yeast rather than the modern efficient one. So the point stands that the Pesach prohibition of leaven is superfluous compared to the Torah.

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