Extensive prayers lead Orthodox Jews to place their hopes in God rather than act. They appeal to God hundreds of times a day, thus accepting his direct influence in routine events from defecation to politics. That’s primitive determinism. Sages taught that God made the laws of nature and let the world develop according to those laws. He even tends to work miracles without violating the laws of nature. God endowed humans with hands, legs, brains, and free will so that they could act rather than bug him on every occasion. Rabbi Akiva didn’t wait for messiah but proclaimed one. Maimonides was clear that Messiah would be a human leader who embarks on rebuilding the Temple. Modern Jews sheepishly pray for Messiah while ostracizing every potential messiah from Zhabotinsky to Kahane.
No wonder that their prayers are answered in negative. Rabbi Eliezer had a good reason to remark, "If someone lets prayer become routine, it loses its quality of supplication" (Berachot 28b). Speed-mumbling the same prayers day after day leaves no hope for a personal relation with God. The Torah wisely limited prayers to festivals and specific occasions and doesn't even demand prayers from laity. Judaism is about living through, not praying for.
Ultra-Orthodox leaders consciously withdraw their flock from the world where the leaders cannot compete. Haredim popularize the stories of Jewish observance in the face of death during the Holocaust – not the accounts of Orthodox resistance in the Warsaw ghetto.
Politicians are necessarily corrupt. Their road to the top is laid with promises and compromises. The era of illustrious lone players had gone with Yitzhak Shamir. Politicians conform to the lowest common denominator of their voters, and must be acceptable to political bureaucracy. By the time politicians arrive at the country’s helm, they are apotheosis of evil. Two types of people could change Israel: a mid-level IDF commander who stages a putsch or an authoritative, non-establishment rabbi who calls on religious Jews to fight the leftist collaborationists.
nice post. Ovadiah arrives to some principes but by the wrong ways..
Obadiah,
Can you imagine a great Jewish leader, who appeals equally to religious and atheist Jews. I am convinced that we Jews have in common, something that much more essential than our beliefs, superstitions and ossified rituals?
Many religious leaders were very, very popular among secular Jews. The Lubavitcher Rebe is one obvious example.
People can recognize a true leader, and a true leader knows how to gather different kinds of people together under his banner.
The Jewish people, indeed, lack such a notable leader in these times.
the lubavitcher rebe is the messiah that born in ny? the one that gave to you a blessed dollar if you gave him 100 dollars?
Denny,
You said that many religious leaders were very, very popular among secular Jews.
I wonder if the other way is also possible: Is it possible for a leader who is not "religious" in a traditional way, one that does not believe in Torah, to be popular with the religious Jews?
Ray Bright — A non-religious Jew would have no interest in reestablishing the Temple. A non-religious Jew would not care about Jerusalem. A non-religious Jew would rather live in New York. Or Miami. Or L.A. Anywhere but Israel. Do you want mayo on that BLT?
Joseph,
As far as I can understand from history, the non-religious (often socialist) Jews were the most important early 20 century pioneers in Israel.
Several members of of my father's family immigrated to Israel from Poland and settled in Kibbutzim. They atheists, yet they believed in regaining the ancient Jewish homeland. They lived in very harsh conditions, suffered from malaria while working on drying up the swamps.
They and their children fought with the Arabs before and after establishment of the state of Israel. Several have been killed.
I think it is very wrong and counterproductive to alienate the secular and other non-Torah Jews.
Joseph,
A person can be an American patriot whether he is a Christian, a Jew, or an atheist.
Obviously any religion or sect that is anti-Jewish is not compatible with citizenship in the Jewish state:
Christianity, traditionally has been anti-Jewish, and Islam is obviously an anti-Semitic Nazi ideology. On the other hand neither Atheism, nor Buddhism, nor Zen is anti-Jewish.
Zen gave birth do best soldiers in the world; the Samurai's. I don't see why there could not be Zen Samurai's Jewish Patriots.
Also, potentially Christianity can return to Jewish fold. Christianity is a Jewish sect. When the origins of Christianity is well researched, it must become clear that Christianity is a branch of Essene Judaism falsified by the Roman bishops.
Ray Bright — My tendency to be flippant catches me up again. I stand corrected for implying that a non-religious Jew would have no attachment to the Jewish homeland.
But your question was "Is it possible for a leader who is not “religious” in a traditional way, one that does not believe in Torah, to be popular with the religious Jews?"
I do not see how that such a person would be able to lead religious Jews in the direction needed. To take control of all Jerusalem and to reestablish the Temple would require that the leader think it's important. I cannot see how an atheist could spearhead an effort to "move" al-Aqsa and rebuild the Temple. I imagine most atheists, (yourself included?) would be completely opposed to seeing the reestablishment of the Temple.
Current Atheists here will not fight for anything that actually puts them at direct risk.
The Kibutzim movement is a total wreck and a failure. Personally I think that's too bad, but that's how it is.
The only thing that might unite secular and religious Jews together is a catastrophe. 'Fortunately' we're bound to have some here soon.
Great leaders rise in times of great strife.
Actually, about prayer- it is good because it makes the person who prays feel better. That is an argument that even an atheist should agree to. I however, believe in G-d, and I believe that I need to pray to G-d, although I know that G-d does not need my prayers to act in creation.
By the way all existing "theistic" Jewish/ Israelite sects- have formal prayer- Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Karaite, Samaritan.
While I think that the current forms of prayer are not perfect, prayer should continue. Without it we are diminished spiritually.
Eric,
You are correct that Kibbutz movement is not strong right now, however without the Kibbutz movement, Israel would not have been established. It was the Kibbutz's that reclaimed over half of the country side.
Are you really saying that all the heroic young men in the Israeli were religious? Are you really sure of your assertion? Please check even in the most recent war in Lebanon, and you may learn that you were mistaken. Please don't confuse atheism agnosticism with leftist-idealism, multiculturalism etc. Atheists can actually be deeply spiritual, and certainly both courageous and patriotic.
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Joseph,
I as "non-believer" with my whole heart support the rights of religious Jews. In my heart I like the idea of the temple as the symbol of national re-emergence. Just like non-religious Russians can love Kremlin.
The non-traditional non-religious Jew, can create space for religious Jews to live their life fully according to their values, but the problem is when the religious want to impose their values on others. I would support them 100% if they just applied their values to themselves.
Ray: I wasn't arguing about the past. I have nothing against the pioneers of this country, unlike many other people who subvert the facts for political reasons.
But right now the Kibbutzim are finished. They are an oddity, a relic, a failed experiment that is being kept alive artificially by the state on the expense of taxpayers. Those who survive on their own merit have simply adopted a capitalist economical model.
As for the last war, indeed, most soldiers were not religious, but who claimed otherwise?
You don't need high ideals to motivate a person to defend his own home. You do need him to have some fervor if you want him to cast out that annoying neighbor that keeps shooting his windows, though , but even so: They were following orders, not fighting out of their own passion! They were not volunteers; Their morale was not that of zealots. They cared mostly about the lives of their comrades - like most soldiers do - but not about their objectives. This is part of why so little was accomplished.
What is this idea of spiritual Atheists? Do they exist in the U.S? Perhaps in the 52nd. state of Fantasia?
Spirituality and Atheism are mutually exclusive, just like Communism and Capitalism.
Perhaps you're referring to the dry definition - That Atheism is simply not following any religion, or not believing in god, but you should know well that real Atheists are more than just that.
When you're talking about secular Israelis, they're not all Atheists, but the declared Israeli Atheists are indeed leftists. For them patriotism, religion and faith are obsolete ideas, that must be done away with.
Not all of them have the guts to avoid military service, but they do not fight out of any ideal. That is, unless they are fighting the Haredim, and over the right to open a mall in Shabat, or reduce the price of pork.
Eric,
I wonder if there is a better place we can carry on this important conversation. I do value my exchange both with you and with Joseph. There are too many misunderstandings to clear up in shorts notes here.
In any case, I do want to assert that
According to Princeton dictoinary:
"Atheism =a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods"
My comment: Knowing God is much higher state of consciousness than believing.
Eric,
Please note that according to Torah neither Moses, nor Abraham, nor Israel nor any other prophet believed in God, they knew God. They had individual relationship beyond all tradition and all scriptures. Perhaps they expressed the inexpressible in the best way available to them. In the very nature of things, it could be no more than metaphors for those who don't know. Their 3000 - 4000 years old language and metaphors is today being followed and interpreted. How much more powerful would it be if we were following their example in knowing God and authentically living accordingly.
When I read Obadiah, I often get the sense that often this is where he is aiming. For example he is saying that some rabbi declares a Messiah instead of waiting for one. He says that Judaism is a religion of deeds not of empty prayers (and rituals and beliefs). The deeds even if mistaken are much closer to God than beliefs, prayers and dogmas.
Ray, while this is all fine and good, I had a feeling that you're thinking about your 'Atheism' as representing. You are simply not an example of the average Atheist, and you should take that as a compliment.
All I'm asking is simply that you understand that because terms and words carry a certain association with them, the people I refer to and the people you refer to, are not the same, and in that way - we are both right.
It's the silliest argument of two people who say the same thing yet
Eric,
Thank you for your "complement":)
I agree with you and know well that most atheists have made a new religion of believing in "no-God".
And I also agree with you that many of them are leftists.
I support these atheist is their opposition to empty rituals, absurd illogical beliefs, and following of absurd priestly authority. At the same time I feel that they have thrown out the baby with the bath water.
What we really need is a new approach that can unite both atheists and religious Jews. I am talking about the very essence of religion. Not beliefs, not even "commandments".
Without that essence, life itself is meaningless. Without that essence atheism is impotent.
Both Atheists and Religious have a grain of truth, and only if we find a way to unite, can we be victorious.
Amen
Danny,
As the proportion of religious Israelis increases in years to come, wouldn't their proportion likewise increase in the IDF? Thus, the possibility of some sort of putsch that comes from Orthodox soldiers that serve in their own units within the army?
What are the likelihood of such units ever forming?
I think that in order for something like that to happen, you would need to do away with conscription as well. A professional volunteer force of men who are career soldiers will more readily follow a rogue IDF commander than a conscript force.
Marius' reforms of the legions in Ancient Rome led directly to Julius Caesar's ability to fight against the senate, as his men were more loyal to him than to their government. Are there not parallels here?
Prayer is a way that we communicate with God. That is why he tells us to pray in the Bible because that is how we build a stronger relationship with him. Without communication there can be no relationship. Its like getting married to someone. If you never talk to them, you may be legally married, but there isn't any relationship. You would never grow close and you would lose them.
Where in the Bible God commands us to pray?
For Ray, Just so you know, we are commanded in the Torah to KNOW G-d, not merely believe in Him.
Danny admin, I think the passage referred to is when it says to thank your Lord for the good land he gave you. The oral tradition that came with the Torah asserted that this dealt with an obligation of tefillah. The shema was traditionally what was said and later with the destruction of the Temple, the rabbis replaced some of the daily Temple service offerings with mandatory prayer service instead as a way to keep us serving Hashem with avodah in the exile even without the former mitzvot we had in the customary Temple service. This spiritual-based design by the sages following the destruction helped maintain our ties to Judaism and frankly, our sanity.